Russ: [00:00:06] A key part of following Jesus is to be someone who understands himself as scent. Okay. Right. I'm a scent one.
Speaker: you yourself can't grow.
Speaker: To be like Jesus, if you continue to live in a lifestyle that's disconnected from lost people,
Jeremy: [00:00:36] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Alright, I'm super excited to drill into, um, some discipleship stuff with y'all. I got Russ Howard, who I've just recently gotten connected with here and Cincinnati fellow disciple maker, uh, [00:01:06] practitioner in the city. We're both good friends with Dennis Boer.
Jeremy: Anybody who's here, uh, knows Dennis. And so Russ and I have been collaborating with another group of, of folks here in the city trying to figure, okay, how do we do this thing better? How do we make disciples who make disciples. Um, so we have the same heart and, uh, and mind on this. Um, and so one of the things that I just am constantly trying to figure out is how do we improve our blueprints for how to do this, how to do this in a way that's effective and that multiplies.
Jeremy: So I got to the privilege of, of [00:01:36] hearing Russ kinda walk through his practice and I was like, man, there's some things I wanna double click on here, and I think you guys really enjoy listening to. So yeah. Russ, thanks for jumping on the podcast.
Russ: Yeah, glad to. I think I shared with you the, uh, image I had of, as I've gotten to know you and Dennis and others of, uh, being in Portland, I don't know, 2019, and there being a fantastic Thai restaurant on every other corner.
Russ: Yet they were all different. They're using the same ingredients, but I could have eaten Thai every week. Totally. And [00:02:06] so it feels like I, we, you and I are using the same ingredients and, uh, yet what we're cooking comes out a little different. And so it's fun to get in the kitchen with you and Yes. Um, talk about that.
Jeremy: So, we're gonna get into your story in a minute, but first, like, could you just share with me a little bit and, and, um, and it's all like, yeah, why does this matter to you? Like what do you care about discipleship?
Russ: Maybe the first thing that comes to mind is just, it's a gospel thing.
Russ: It is inherent [00:02:36] in what it means to live in, uh, God's story. That, uh, uh, that, you know, I think for a long time the way I understood God's story was that I'm a sinner. Jesus saves me. Um, and that, that eliminates, I mean, those things are true, but it eliminates all that he made and what he made us for. Um, but it also eliminates, or at least makes optional.
Russ: Um, and this is kind of Dallas Willard language, right? Makes optional [00:03:06] things like disciple making, um, and mercy and justice and uh, compassion and all sorts of other things in the Christian life. And so, um. Uh, so yeah. Uh, I've experienced, you know, people who've helped me grow in my life. Um, uh, but I think at the heart it is the closer you get the heart of Jesus, the, the, the more this matters.
Russ: Mm. And so, um, so yeah, that I think is probably my biggest motivator. Man. That's good. Uh, [00:03:36] yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Why do you think this often gets left outta the story? So you're saying, look, this is, this is central, this is critical, this is, but that's not, your opinion on that is, doesn't seem to be shared, at least in practice.
Jeremy: By a lot of people. Why do you think that is?
Russ: Uh, well, I, I think one of the big reasons is that our story hasn't been robust. It has been, uh, I miss synergies and saves me, and if that's the case there, there is no compelling, I get to [00:04:06] participate in what God's doing in reconciling, restoring, renewing, healing, saving, all that biblical language, what he's doing in that, not only in my life.
Russ: Core relationships of with him and with others and with the world and ourselves. Um, but to get to participate that in the world around me, in the lives of other people, you know? And so, um, and it's just, it's what he did, right? There's this interesting. Thing at the end of John where [00:04:36] he is praying and he says, I've, uh, I I've done what you sent me to do.
Russ: Yeah. Which is really confusing in the sense that he's not gone to the cross yet. Mm-hmm. And so, but I think what he's saying is, I came and I, and I've trained these 12, like he's praying with them in that moment. And man, if we want to, if we cared at all about, um, living a life in the way that he would if he were us.
Russ: Mm. Again, that's probably Willard, um mm-hmm. Uh, then that's got to matter. Yeah. Right. Yeah. [00:05:06] And so, yeah. Yeah,
Speaker: that, yeah, it's interesting. And just to like, you know, zero into what you just said there it is really that, that does really strike me. Yeah. John 17, before Jesus goes to the cross, he says, I've completed the work, and so he somehow saw the making of the disciples, these 11 men.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. 12. 'cause I think Judas was important for different reasons. Mm-hmm. His life imparted to them was central to the mission. Yeah. And somehow after that we've made sort of [00:05:36] salvation, almost the entire mission, salvation in our often modern evangelical language. Meaning simply like the first step into that as having faith in Jesus.
Speaker: And discipleship is some kind of like optional side. Um. You know, uh, project as opposed to Jesus saying this was the mission. Like, like had he come and died on the cross, Jesus is saying that would not have completed the mission without having made the disciples.
Russ: Yep. Absolutely
Speaker: man.
Russ: Yeah.
Speaker: Alright. Yeah. I [00:06:06] want to, so I want to, so how do you define it?
Speaker: Like, let's, I wanna get into your, what we're gonna kinda go step by step through the blueprint, but, but give me kind of an idea when somebody says, like, um, Hey, would you disciple me or if. You are approaching somebody saying, Hey, can we enter a disciple discipling relationship? How do you define it? How do you think about the scope of the project itself?
Russ: That's good. Definition wise, uh, I'll explain a little of the language as I go through this 'cause it's a little funky. Uh, I, I think of a disciple, uh, maker, um, or [00:06:36] disciple is someone who's being trained by Jesus, which is, uh, which is the, a little bit of a flavor. Um, and the bottom line, I I, I do think the spirit of Jesus does the bulk of the work, right?
Russ: Um, I, so I'm uncomfortable these days thinking of myself as a, a disciple maker. I get to participate with what he's doing to continue right to train. Me and us to be like him and to do what he does. And so, and that's the next part of the definition that Okay. Uh, it does a couple of things. One [00:07:06] is it takes the weight off 'cause it's for everyday people.
Russ: And so many everyday people think they have to know all the stuff that a, that a professional like me, that's like a vocational. Minister like I am, um, and to be able to go, gosh, um, actually Jesus is still doing the work. Uh, you just get to, you get to help facilitate that work. Yeah. Uh, and it's way simpler than what most people think.
Russ: Um, and above that. Man, it is so good when you get to see God work in people's lives and you know, [00:07:36] you didn't make that happen. Mm-hmm. Um, and so much of what we do is about paying attention to the spirit. It's not about paying attention to me. Right. It's largely not my words for you that are helping to make change.
Russ: It's what you're hearing, um, and what you're noticing, which is really coming from the spirit. And so, uh, so disciple is someone who's being trained by Jesus, um, to be like him. To do what he does, uh, and then help others do the same. [00:08:06] And that, um, our, and we mentioned earlier, our friend Dennis, um, that language of his, of, you know, he felt like for, uh, for a lot of his ministry he was making seedless grapes, right?
Russ: And so, uh, that help others do the same is the, is the generational piece, you know, helping people. Uh, spiritual grandparenting is really the metaphor of what we wanna see. And so raising people up in a way that's simple, transferrable in a way that they can raise up the next generation and the [00:08:36] next
Jeremy: Yeah.
Jeremy: You, you like me. Were very concerned about like, so making sure that, that this, this works for ordinary people.
Jeremy: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: And a lot of, a lot of times when I see blueprints that kind of rely upon professionals or teachers or kind of designed around. They're either skill or their availability. Mm-hmm. They tend not to multiply, like to create a movement.
Jeremy: Mm-hmm. It has to, it has to penetrate deeper and deeper into the community. It's got a, this, [00:09:06] you know, if, if more than like 50% of people don't participate, usually the movement dies if it's supposed to multiply. So yeah. What, what have you found? And then we can drill into kind of more the how. Um, and feel free to kind of go into this, you know, in whatever detail, but.
Jeremy: Um, one of these i, I just was struck with is, I, I know you've really thought about this. Okay. How do I make this accessible for, for, for every people I'm looking at this particular person, and while I'm in this relationship, I'm asking myself, are they getting confident enough to be able to do what I'm [00:09:36] doing?
Jeremy: Yeah. Or are, or am I somehow stealing their confidence through Yeah. My method through, um, maybe some innate skills I have, like, yeah. Walk me through what, what you do, and then how does this, how does it become accessible for the ordinary person?
Russ: It's good. And I think maybe, uh, the language of relational environments helps that I, that I know when I'm in, when I'm facilitating a disciple making environment, um, it's helpful for me to know that 'cause then I'm wearing, what I'm wearing is an everyday person hat, [00:10:06] ordinary person.
Russ: I, I don't want to do anything that an ordinary person can't. Because I'm modeling what this thing is. The minute somebody asks me some, you know, question about the intricacies of the Trinity, and I answer it, I'm now communicating to everybody. They can't do what I do.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Russ: And I, I would probably try to answer that and give a really bad answer anyway, you know, and so, so, uh, so I just, uh, restraint is for people like me, right?
Russ: People who have a lot of. [00:10:36] Bible knowledge or a lot of are used to, I don't know, they're a teacher. They like the sound of their own voice, all of that, like learning to restrain a lot of that. And so, um, I think you and I talked a little bit about there are these, um, uh, outside the, the intentionality of the things that Jesus did, right.
Russ: Um, he. He spent time in his relationship with the father, spent time in his relationship within spiritual community, [00:11:06] spent time with the lost, like that's what he did all the time.
Russ: Those environments.
Russ: That's it. And so in our, in a disciple making environment, we're gonna focus on one of those relationships.
Russ: Okay. Um, 'cause we wanna practice inside of those relationships
Jeremy: each, in, each in a particular session or, uh, you will say, Hey, this is the kind of, that's the up in and out kind of idea. So we're going to, yeah. We're gonna really spend time with God, or we're gonna really learn how to be together. We're gonna really learn how to be with the lost.
Jeremy: Like,
Russ: uh, does it matter if, uh, hey, we, [00:11:36] uh, we kind of touch base on, on all of them each week? Okay. Okay. Or if each week we focus on one, um, our standard is like. Hey, once a month we're gonna ask ourselves, how's it going? And are you intentionally focusing on all three relationships?
Speaker 3: Okay.
Russ: Um, and if you aren't, there may be reasons, but we're gonna continue to hold ourselves to, um, Hey, we wanna make sure that we're intentional and, and one thing we're learning is that it just really helps to narrate that for people that we're,
Speaker: so take me into a session where you're [00:12:06] doing that.
Speaker: Like what, what are some things you're saying or how are you facilitating that?
Russ: Sure. Um, so, uh, if we were, um, and we can just do this really quickly if you want, um, and we can answer fast. I think probably I'll just walk us through a simple conversation. There's more we would do, we would probably eat together, you know, um, and something sacred about shared meals.
Russ: Um, and probably talk about, you know, one good thing in our life, one hard thing in our life. Um, and we might open, [00:12:36] um. I, I would narrate this and saying, Hey, we're we, you know, you guys know that we are either focused on n. Our relationship with each other, um, or our brothers and sisters in Christ or relation or up relationship with the father.
Russ: Uh, but we're gonna focus on out our relationship with somebody who's lost in, in our lives. Um, and here's Genesis 12, one through three where God calls a man a Abraham and says, I'm gonna bless you and through you, all peoples will be blessed. Uh, [00:13:06] and so one question we may ask is, let's get tangible on blessing.
Russ: Uh, think about, uh, somebody who blessed you. Recently, like when you think of they blessed me, what is the thing that they did? Mm-hmm. Right. So when I say that, uh, I think of a, guy that I work with who checked in on me yesterday knowing that, uh, I, I spent last week with a bunch of teenagers and I came back and got COVID.
Russ: So, so he just sent me a text and said, how are you doing? Right. Which told me that he cared. That was that. He blessed [00:13:36] me with that. Yeah. Can you think of one thing that somebody blessed you? Like when you think of being blessed? Well, when you say that,
Speaker: yeah. Yeah. My, um, my grandson, uh, he loves, he loves, uh, me and he loves being with me.
Speaker: And so, yeah, that's. He's like, yeah, we got to go to a baseball game yesterday. Cool. That was uh, that was super fun. Yeah. So he
Russ: played with you, like you guys played with him, did time, time with you. Yeah.
Speaker: I love that age. They see, they see you, they relationship. That's so fun. Yeah.
Russ: Oh [00:14:06] man. That's good. Um. So, yeah, whether it's a grandkid or somebody at work, it's somebody giving us their attention.
Russ: Yeah. Right. And it could be time together, it could be, uh, it could be a simple gift from somebody. It could be, you know, uh, saying something, encouraging or kind, uh, doing a kind thing, whatever it is. So that passage says. God wants to bless us. So what's one thing that he's done, uh, for you in a way that's blessed you?
Russ: Right? What, in what way [00:14:36] have you seen his attention, uh, given to you? And I'm gonna answer that question and I don't wanna rush too much. Uh, but, um, and I would say through this junior in high school, this kid named Tucker, who, uh, um. Uh, wants to stay intentional about his, um, faith. And he kind of feels like from times when he's with his community, the [00:15:06] times in between, he feels less intentional.
Russ: And so we decided just to text each other one thing every day. You know, we have a question each day that we do this with. And, uh, so I mean, I think through Tucker. God, um, bless me. 'cause this, here's a kid that's just earnest. Um, and it helps. 'cause some days I'm not as earnest as I wanna be. And so that's the first thing that comes to mind, man, is Tucker.
Russ: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I think, um, you know, for me, like right [00:15:36] now, I think every minute I guess spent with my dad feels like a blessing from God. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. At his age and stage. Yeah, so getting to hang with him yesterday, I, I feel like just, yeah, the, um, and I think there are things that only your dad can, um, you know, say or do that, that will hit a certain part of your heart.
Speaker: And so I just think that's a huge gift from the Lord. I know that for a lot of people. They don't get to have that experience. And, and I know I'm not gonna get to have that experience forever. Yeah. [00:16:06] But man, yeah. I'm, I cherish it right now for sure. A deep level man.
Russ: It's cool. I, I'm hearing you positionally between these generations.
Russ: Right, right, right. And, uh, yeah. That's good. It's crazy to,
Speaker: yeah, I think, I think I'm very conscious of the fact that there are four generations mm-hmm. That I am experiencing like goodness from. That's cool and that God himself designed that goodness, and that that is such a rare thing to get to experience.
Speaker: And so, um, I desperately want to see more [00:16:36] people experience it, but I, I also just feel like God is a good father and he designed this really well, and man to sit in the, yeah. Sit in somewhere in the middle of that experience, you know? Mm-hmm. Someday, you know, I was, I was young. Someday I'm gonna be, you know, likely I'll be the oldest.
Speaker: You know? So there is something incredibly special about being in the middle. I love being in the middle. That's cool. I was a middle, I was a middle child, so I, okay.
Russ: So I don't often hear love being in the middle from a middle child. I know. Most people don't. Very [00:17:06] comfort. That's Yes. That's good. So if we were sitting, you know, around my table, we would've had this conversation and lean back and.
Russ: Been listening. Well, um, and uh, yeah. And this kind of thing. Um, but the last question is this. 'cause that passage says that God wants to bless all peoples Yes. All people groups, people everywhere. Yeah. Uh, so you and I have people in our life who are currently not following Jesus. Right. Yeah. The Bible use of the word lost, I think of them as they've not found [00:17:36] their way into the kingdom yet.
Russ: Right. They're not chosen to step into the kingdom. Yeah. Um, so who is one person. In your life that's, uh, uh, that, that God wants to bless through you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Russ: Right. Um, and then I'll ask one more question after that about what does that look like? But at this point, let's just kind of acknowledge the person.
Russ: Yeah. So.
Speaker: I've got someone in my mind, I'm not gonna call 'em out by name just in case they, uh, come across the podcast. Exactly. It's a good call. [00:18:06] But, um, but yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking about thinking about somebody who Yeah. Has really deep on my heart. Yeah. That's good. Yeah.
Russ: I got a young woman who's a barista that, um, has been in my mind this week a lot.
Russ: So, uh, so what's one simple thing you wanna do about that as you think about her? Uh, or them. So for me, it's her. Um, uh, what's one simple thing you wanna do? And it could be, you know, ask God to bless, to bless them today. Or, you know, draw them into Christ. Yeah. Um, yeah,
Speaker: yeah. [00:18:36] Invite them to something. Send 'em a text, you know, like, yeah.
Speaker: Like, so ask the Lord. Yeah. Well, how do I bless this, this person? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And
Russ: simple is five minutes in the next 24 hours. Okay. Like, that way you know that you did it. Okay. And that it's a lightweight, like this is lightweight obedience. Yeah. Right. But, uh, it's kinda like lifting weights. Mm. Uh, and, uh, lightweight, high rep.
Russ: Yeah. Little acts of surrender, little acts of obedience over time. Yes. Starts [00:19:06] building the spiritual muscle. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, yeah, for me, I'm, I'm, uh, gonna continue to ask. Uh, I don't yet get to have spiritual conversations with her. Okay. Uh, but I'm asking God to woo her heart to him, right? Mm-hmm. To woo, um, pretty resistant to, to Jesus.
Russ: So, um. That's my prayer for her. So I'll do that, uh, when I hit, when I jump in the car and I, I leave here, so, okay.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I'll [00:19:36] shoot, I'll shoot this guy a text. Yeah. Right after we get done here. Cool. Tell him I, yeah. Love to see him. Yeah. Thinking about him. Yeah.
Russ: Good. All right. So that was like the prototype.
Russ: Okay. Awesome. Of what might happen around my, around the table. So,
Speaker: so you, so you have a meal. We're gonna have a conversation. We're gonna kinda like, move through this sort of up in, out, um, we're gonna sort of listen to and we're trying. And so one of the things that you're modeling is let's, it's like a, [00:20:06] I don't know if you could drill into this, but it's like, I, I feel like what, um, I, I'm always trying to be conscious of the difference between teaching and discipleship.
Speaker: And one of things I sense happening here is. Is really like some kind of, some kind of integration of those things. It's like we're gonna practice this and we're gonna, this is getting into your real life, which, which both. Downshifts it from teaching and I think makes it more accessible to the non-teacher disciple maker.
Speaker: Maybe you could talk a little bit more about that, like how does that work? Yeah.
Russ: I think they're [00:20:36] both important. Like how do people get good at what they do? Right? You ask a doctor, they're gonna say something like study in practice.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Russ: Right? You got classroom, you got lab work. Um, I think both of those are important.
Russ: Uh, I think study is important. I think practice is important. And so, uh, well, what I, we just did, and what I do when I think of when I understand this as a supple making environment is primarily practice. Practice. So we're
Speaker: gonna default to practice because that's what this is, that's what makes this unique.
Russ: Yeah. [00:21:06] And really I think the thing we're practicing is this core skill of following Jesus. Uh, and, and the place I'll point to most of the time 'cause it's so clear, but you can see it all through scripture, is the end of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says, you want a life that's solid and founded like a man who built his house in a rock.
Russ: Hear my words and do them.
Jeremy: Hmm.
Russ: Um, tho that, that instinct, and this is if you're around the. It's disciple making world. The three DM chiro circle thing gets to this, okay? But it's as simple as, what are you [00:21:36] noticing? This is where we use a lot.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Russ: What are you, what are you noticing right now? Um, and so people who have been in our environments or been in training, when they use the word notice, it's a, it's a kicker, right?
Russ: It's kicking something. Yeah. It means, Hey, there's a thing I'm noticing and it may be a thing that, that, you know, God has for me. Um, but then what am I gonna do about it? How am I gonna put that into practice? And your practice is probably starts with one simple thing that'll take you five minutes or less in the next 24 hours.
Jeremy: Hmm.
Russ: [00:22:06] Um, sometimes it's more. A lot of times it's just, well, what's that next simple thing you're gonna do? Okay. And so the thing we're doing as we, as we did what we did, walking through these simple questions kind of based outta Genesis 12, uh, they're not always based outta scripture. They could be simple, you know, what are five pivotal moments in your life?
Russ: And let's share one today. Um, but we're paying attention, we're listening. And so. A mantra that we have would be, truth is discovered, not downloaded, [00:22:36] and so I might say. Most of the time, right. But, uh, so what we wanna do, and this is the why we look at this, that little line of being trained by Jesus, uh, is trained by the spirit, um, of much rather people identify and pay attention to the thing that they're discovering.
Russ: So you're familiar with the Discover Bible Study it. It does the same thing. It, you take a look at a text and if you're sitting and reading with six people, you can have six different applications, six different [00:23:06] insights. You've noticed six different things, and you're taking six different actions. Okay.
Russ: And, um, yeah, I was, I was
Speaker: gonna ask you, Russ, 'cause I, I lead a discover Bible study that Yeah. Focuses on the gospels every week. Mm-hmm. And, and so the practice that we just went through. How would you do that? Like, so this week we're looking at the Beatitudes, right? Yeah. So we're gonna be reading from Matthew five and doing some, you know, observation, interpretation, but I really wanna do the practice well.
Speaker: Yeah. So what would, is there, would you take something [00:23:36] like you, you use the blessing from Genesis 12. Would you, would you grab something from like an observation that somebody makes and then like we drill that into the three up and out, like kinda walk me through what that could look like and Yeah. That,
Russ: that's interesting.
Russ: The, the, the weeks we might sit and do a discover Bible study. Uh, we've got some communities that's like three outta four weeks. That's what they do. Okay. And they're intentional about up and, and out inside the inside. The, the, the dbs. Okay. That there are communal questions in there. There are end [00:24:06] questions.
Russ: There are up questions. Let's read the text and get familiar with the text. Okay. And ask questions about God and ourselves. Okay. But all that's moving towards obedience and action. It's moving towards out. So the thing it doesn't do that we become more and more, um, focused on is to identify out means lost people.
Speaker: It
Russ: means needy people.
Speaker: It really struck me when you said that. 'cause I, I, I don't think I've heard that emphasis that that was what was new for me. And yeah. Drill into that a little bit more. Why did you make that decision?
Russ: [00:24:36] Uh, 'cause this is, um. All right. So you, you get a day in the life of Jesus in Luke six.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Russ: Uh, he goes off to the mountain to, to, to, to commune with God at prayer. So there's that relationship comes down and selects the 12. I'm sure God had some information right. That he was communicating that with. Yeah. But those 12, he's gonna spend, you know, all this time with, and he is gonna spend all this time alone with God.
Russ: Like we see it all the time. But then with them, he goes and, uh, [00:25:06] uh, teaches. Heels Right. Shows and tells the good news to people who aren't following him yet.
Jeremy: Mm-hmm.
Russ: And so like that is where he spent, he spent his time with them as much as he spent his time with the disciples. And so, but it is, it is this invitation into life with him.
Russ: Right. And so, so,
Speaker: so you're saying, look, this is the, Jesus had a pattern. Mm-hmm. Spend time with God. Gather other believers, and then together we go hang out with the lost. And it's just, this is the pattern. And like we, like, that's not, that's not our [00:25:36] pattern. It's like, so, uh, yeah, there's a huge gap. Why, why don't we do?
Speaker: Because I, mm-hmm. Part of the, the challenge that I guess I, I can't quite tell what of this is, um, cultural. Like we just mm-hmm. Live in different spheres. Uh, and we, and this is true for everybody. Like we just live in these. Very, like isolated pockets of relationships. Yeah. And, um, and so if a Christian doesn't do things that are, you know, as a disciple to pop that bubble, [00:26:06] you're stuck in that bubble.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Like there's no way you're going to, just naturally, unless, unless you have some kind of job that just, you know, does this for you.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Speaker: But, but even in the way that you're describing Russ, it wasn't, it's not like we're all going out from, from our Bible study into, it's just like you're, you're saying in your, the next 24 hours.
Speaker: Yeah, you need to be amongst the lost and you need to go into that situation mindful of what the spirit's already in this kind of moment, uh, together what you, where you can hear [00:26:36] him, what he's calling you to do. Mm-hmm. I mean, yeah, kind of. This is, this is such a huge problem. I mean, I trying to get people to, to be outwardly oriented like that.
Speaker: And I think, I think similar to discipleship, most people, they stop apprenticing. But I would say this is, this is, um, equally, uh, challenging. People just have no relationship with lost people anymore.
Russ: Yeah. Times. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've had people. Tell me. Well, you know, it feels like I've, you know, I've been part of the church long enough, I just don't have non Christiansen Right.
Russ: Friends anymore. Yes. Um, [00:27:06] and, uh, yeah, that's not, we're, we're not experiencing the full life of Jesus without that. Right. It's not just about
Speaker: them. You wouldn't say, hey. Right. It's not like, oh yeah, we, we need you to, to reach lost people because we're trying to hit a quota or something. It's like, no, you yourself can't grow.
Speaker: To be like Jesus, if you continue to live in a lifestyle that's disconnected from lost people,
Russ: A, a key part of following Jesus is to be, uh, someone who understands himself as scent. Okay. [00:27:36] Right. I'm a scent one. Yes. Right. Which is thinking of living like a missionary. Yes. As says Matthew nine and 10, right beginning a nine, he says, you know, the, the harvest is plentiful.
Russ: The workers are few.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Russ: Pray, ask, pray, pray, pray, pray. Ask the Lord to harvest besiege, the Lord of the harvest, uh, to send workers. And now he then sends them. Right. Uh, and that's where you get people with peace language. I get all this beautiful stuff, but like this is an integral part of what it means, uh, to live in the way [00:28:06] that Jesus did practice his life rhythms.
Russ: Right. And so that's good. Yeah. Well,
Speaker: I, one of the things you mentioned when we were sort of having this conversation was it, it seemed like there were some core. Like teachings or core foundational elements. Yeah. You got, so you get a, you get a group going and you're like, I'm gonna really, I'm gonna spend time, you know?
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Um, imparting into this group, what are, what are some of those things that you find are like foundational to teach? Yeah.
Russ: They're, uh, four kind of core conversations [00:28:36] as that we think of 'em and in training, uh. So people are learning how to do what I do when they, when we meet up around my table.
Russ: Right. And so, 'cause I'm doing it so simply. Um, but then we do, uh, an intensive training. 13 weeks of training, two hours a week, 13 weeks. Okay. So it's 26 hours together. It is boot camp, like, we're gonna
Speaker: start with this like, intense 13 weeks. Okay. That's it. That's it? Yeah. Okay.
Russ: Um, and. That really is, uh, [00:29:06] to kinda immerse ourselves in some of these core biblical principles or conversations.
Russ: They look like conversations, and once you learn them, you can have them in your community. You can have them with people like they, uh, you have an access to them that you're able to, and. The intent is for them to be functional.
Speaker 3: Okay?
Russ: Right. This isn't just a biblical principle. Once you got it, you got it.
Russ: It's easily shareable and, and it's functional. It's app applicable. So when I mentioned to you, so we, we use four s [00:29:36] words for this. Okay. One is to be storied. And this is where my mind went. When, when, when you asked me the very first question, which Yeah, I remember. Like, why does this matter to me? Yeah. It, I jumped straight into, it's, it's the whole story of God.
Russ: Yes. Um, maybe it's called the fourfold, you know, uh, fourfold something. But yes, uh, God made everything, uh, made us for right relationships with Him. Each other rolled around us and ourselves. We broke it through sin. Uh, he entered the world through Jesus. Uh, to reconcile. This is now second Corinthians [00:30:06] five, right?
Russ: Yes. To reconcile, to put those relationships back together, and he invites us to join him for the rest. Um, and so we spend four hours, two, two nights, uh, spending, spending time sinking into that, right? Because we want to find ourselves in that. And we have simple process questions that help people enter in.
Russ: And so tons of debriefing as we do this, but storied surrendered. That's about who Jesus is. Yes. What he wants from us. Uh, he wants our allegiance. Yes. [00:30:36] Um, and then we've got a, got a simple metaphor, uh, that, um, it gets really functional, uh, for that. I think I mentioned this Yeah. Or maybe showed it. I think I
Speaker: can share, share this with um Okay.
Speaker: You, those of you guys who are looking at Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is. I love this, uh, this image. Yes. Why don't you talk us through this for a second.
Russ: So this is a kind of thing, um, by the way,
Speaker: for people who aren't, who aren't watching this on YouTube. Yeah. What we're looking at is a circle with a, uh, [00:31:06] a crown in the middle.
Speaker: Yep. And around the edges are political life, family life, social life, economic life, work life, physical life, church, life and love life. It's good. Um, okay, so go ahead Russ.
Russ: Yeah, so we just think of this as a, um, as our life represented by a wheel with spokes and a hub. And, uh, we have all these different.
Russ: Parts of our life, right? Represented here, family, political, church. Uh, but when [00:31:36] in Luke 9 23, Jesus says, whoever wants to come after me, you know, uh, the king. This is right after he's identified as the Messiah. He is our king. He wants our allegiance right to deny ourself, to come our cross and follow him.
Russ: Uh, that means he belongs in the hub of our life. We're counting on him to hold us together. We're trusting we have faith in him. Um, we, uh, love him, right? All that language gets centered, right? He is on the throne of our life. Uh, so a very practical [00:32:06] question, once we've spent time sinking into this, is what part of your life is threatening to be in the hub?
Jeremy: Hmm.
Russ: Yeah. Um, and that could be all sorts of the good things of our life. 'cause all those things are good things. Yeah. Um, and so, uh, but once you're armed with that, uh, today I mentioned Tucker, uh, the young guy that we're texting, uh, that's, that was yesterday's question, uh, for us just to send an answer to, to each other is what's, what is threatening to be in the hub today.
Russ: Okay. [00:32:36] Um, once you're armed with that, with other people. Uh, but even with yourself, right? This is a daily prayer of repentance. And so storied surrendered, spirit led, um, and that is practicing. Uh, hey, what are you noticing and what, what are you doing about it? You know? Uh, and that, that's, that is the core skill.
Russ: I think, uh, these are all gospel language, really like, yeah, big cosmic gospel to the gospel in front of you, king Jesus, you [00:33:06] know, to what does the gospel look like? That looks like living in those rhythms, life rhythms of Jesus, um, to, uh, how do I know what the next right thing to do is? I pay attention to what, what God's doing or saying in my life, and then I do it.
Speaker: Um, so, so, so somebody is immersed in this, this story. They're like, okay, this is the story I'm living in. This is the truth. Art, art of the story. Now I need to be aware if I'm actually surrendered. One things I love about this image is it's like, [00:33:36] yeah, it's, it's such a great powerful diagnostic tool. 'cause it's really asking the question.
Speaker: There's probably something and we're not gonna assume what it is. We're not gonna say, oh, it's, it's definitely money for everybody. It's definitely family for everybody. It's definitely no politics. Who knows? Like, but there's something that, that like every one of us has something that, that is right now the, the thing that's most threatening.
Speaker: Uh, like to, to become an idol in our lives and, and sort of dethrone Jesus from being. Yep. So, so walking that through, really being aware of what that is. And this is just like, we're this, this is what it means to follow Jesus. You [00:34:06] guys. It's like you, Jesus is Lord Jesus is king. Like we're not. Yep. Right. So, so that's the second S is like, really?
Speaker: And so you spend a, you know, another couple sessions on that.
Russ: That's it. Okay. Yep. Uh, and then four sessions on Spirit led. We really practice hard paying attention. Paying attention to. That's okay. Really, at the core, that's what this is. We're paying attention, uh, to God, to the spirit, whatever he's up to.
Russ: We're paying attention to the person in front of us and paying attention to ourselves. Okay. And, uh, [00:34:36] and we're just looking at, hey, if I notice something, is that something that. I need to respond to. Okay. And so, um, and in that we train people on the on, on reading scripture through the dbs. Uh, 'cause it is a very tangible way of, of them recognizing, oh, I've noticed something in that passage and now I'm doing it.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Russ: Um, or now I can do it. Um, so we do that, we do all sorts of simple conversations that help, help us notice, um, because if you're gonna help somebody [00:35:06] else disciple, like help disciple other people,
Speaker 3: yeah.
Russ: What you wanna do is help them be able to notice things. Uh, and the best way to develop that skill is you do it yourself, right?
Russ: So, uh, so. Storied surrender, spirit led last one is sent being ascent one. Okay. Yeah. We got a very simple path, uh, that uh, where it begins with prayer to bless people, to pray for partners, which could be people of peace, it could be [00:35:36] other Christians, whatever it is, uh, to, to an invite into where you're practicing those right.
Russ: Life for them of Jesus to Okay. Sending others. Uh, the goal with that, we do relational mapping in that too, to help people Okay. Identify the lost people in their lives because they have them, whether they know it or not.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Russ: And so, um, but all of that is, uh, especially in the, in the scent piece, is there to help.
Russ: Take this sort of, [00:36:06] uh, mysterious, overwhelming sense of evangelism. Okay. Right. People feel like I can't do that. Yes. Well, in one conversation, if you walk away from here and you're, you've got a handful of people. You're praying for every day. Well, now you're, you're showing it only good news. You're on the path.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Russ: There's more for you to do, but you're, you are, you know, uh, we wanna make it accessible for people. Yeah.
Speaker: That's good. Okay. Yeah. So since, and then, so we got 13 weeks, we've been. Kind of [00:36:36] going through the bootcamp, getting these four S's, uh, dialed in. Mm-hmm. Um, and after the 13 weeks, what is, is that when like, um, yeah.
Speaker: Kind of talk, talk me through how this kind of, um, concludes and then, and, and then how does, how does it multiply?
Russ: Yeah. The, the real goal is to multiply communities. Okay. And so, um. Uh, uh, our goal is for people to be participating in a community. Not everybody's gonna lead most can. Okay. Uh, it is gotta be [00:37:06] simple enough that most can lead a community.
Russ: What's the average size of
Speaker: the community?
Russ: Uh, gosh. Um, some of ours are, um. Uh, they can get too big. And so ideally you're looking at somewhere, uh, 12 is large. Right? Okay. But doable, uh, if you've got a two hour window, you can, you can pull 12. Okay. And so you've gotta be able to have a space where everybody can be heard, okay?
Russ: Um, [00:37:36] and, and you've gotta be able to move slow.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Russ: You know, uh, the supple making happens in environments that are slow and simple and, um, uh, and small. You know, and so, uh, we've got some, we've got one right now that actually they're just launching. They, they just prayed over two, two of their people.
Russ: They're gonna be starting up a, a new community. So they prayed over them last night, but I think they're at 17, which is Oh wow. Uh, brutal. I think they've been breaking out into two. And [00:38:06] we've got other communities that, that may have four separate conversations happening at their house, right? And so they all eat one meal together in this kind of crazy thing, and then they break out.
Russ: Uh, so there are ways to do that. And so, uh, but ideally, conversationally, uh, you know, you're in, you're around an eight number, uh, for me is the sweet spot, you know? Okay. Uh, you always want. Uh, for us it's, we want there to be a seat at the table always. Um, 'cause these are [00:38:36] not, uh, we're not meeting up in isolation.
Russ: And at some point there's somebody in my life I wanna be able to go, Hey, uh, we wanna welcome you to the table. You know, come join us. Uh, and we're praying for those to be lost people, right? And so not, not just Christians who, you know, uh, need to grow and become disciple makers who want those people, but, um, want room for the lost.
Russ: And so, uh, so the end goal is that the training. Uh, uh, we're kind of looking at that now, sort of [00:39:06] like we're kind of prepping the seed, right? Yeah. And then where it plants it, it, it has so much to do about context for people and what they're doing. And so, uh, the follow-up is coaching. And so, uh, we'll we will coach for a while post training.
Russ: Um, and, uh, but we don't, we're not coaching forever post training. Okay. Uh, 'cause some folks may immediately go into to group leading and if they do that, then there's coaching for that. Okay. That's our primary coach. [00:39:36] And so, uh, but we do provide some direction in terms of, so what does this look like in your life?
Russ: You know, uh, and for some we've got this wonderful company, that couple that are going to be leading. A community. It's just, they're here right now because she's in a residency at Good Sam. Their time is so limited and so they're continuing to participate in the community they're a part of. They've been trained and equipped.
Russ: Uh, they are disciple disciples, uh, 'cause they're participating in [00:40:06] this community and it's keeping all of those life rhythms of Jesus alive and them an active, um. But what's gonna happen is that she's, they're, they're gonna finish their time here. Uh, they're gonna move back home and a community will grow up out of them.
Russ: Right. And so we're not coaching for them because the group is providing the support, the coaching would. Okay. And so, um, I dunno if I explained that well.
Speaker: Yeah. So, so when you say that because be because the group is providing the coaching. Uh, [00:40:36] yeah.
Russ: So, um. Here's what we think. I don't know if you're familiar with this.
Russ: Uh, so based off of real life, David Putman, uh, they have a, uh, the first conversation we have with people is just setting the goal. We talk about spiritual grandparenting and they use a life cycle, understanding their stages of faith. Uh, this is really helpful. It just helps us set up a spiritual grandparenting, a second Timothy tutu thing of generations.
Russ: Um. This conversation, this life [00:41:06] cycle is really helpful as a, as a community leader, a leader of a community. Um, because different people are at different stages of faith, and I will have different stages of faith around my table. Uh, some people are early in their walk, right? And so they need their, they need the community.
Russ: You know, they're learning what it's like to have spiritual community, uh, and they're, they're getting to know, Hey, how do I pray? You know, how do I do these simple, basic things? Yeah. Uh, we've got people that are [00:41:36] in kind of a spiritual teenage, right? They're, they're in pain and growing pains, disorientation.
Russ: Uh, and, and the community primarily is providing encouragement for them people to walk with them through that season. Uh, some people are ready to be officially trained, you know, and it's, and it's a training entity for them. It's a training community, uh, for others, for spiritual parents, grandparents, it's support.
Russ: You know, I get support from my community. It helps me continue to grow. How many
Speaker: life are there? [00:42:06]
Russ: So we, we go through six. We've added, we added one to, uh, to what they use. Uh, we start with, uh, really spiritually dead. And when we train it, we, we use the word unborn and then we go, well, actually the Bible uses the word dead.
Russ: And so, uh, to infants, which is that, just that early in life with Jesus. Okay. Uh, it's really an orientation window and it takes, at that point, we jump into one-on-one for a while. You know. Let's, let's [00:42:36] nurture you, uh, early here. We won't last long, but we're gonna nurture you a bit. Okay. Uh, then into spiritual childhood, right, which is about.
Russ: Uh, about connecting to basic understanding of God, Bible, Christian life and spiritual community. Those are core. Um, what we did is we added this season of like, spiritual teen, um, because I dunno if you've ever read the, the, the critical journey, uh, I can't remember who wrote it. But the recognition that they referred to [00:43:06] the wall, that in spiritual growth, people hit a wall.
Jeremy: Hmm.
Russ: Um, and I think we hit multiple walls, right? Like this is a stage of faith that we all can wind up in at different points. Hmm. Um, and so recognizing that, um, that there are people that are, that are in a space where they need encouragement. Um, and so we meet that need and then. Spiritual young adults.
Russ: We talk about training and then spiritual parenting. Okay. And so, and that's support.
Speaker: [00:43:36] Okay, cool. Okay, man, that's really interesting. Yeah. So around one table, you could have like three or four different, you know, however many stages, um, we're all going through, but we're kind of like getting something different depending on what stage we're at from the same.
Speaker: Same community, the same
Russ: experience. Yeah. We started this in 20, 20 19. My wife and I have had one table. I've helped cultivate some others. And, but we've been meeting on, uh, initially Wednesdays, now Mondays since 2019. Uh, and we're nowhere close to burnout. Mm-hmm. [00:44:06] Because, because we sit down in that community and a, I don't have to plan what I'm gonna tell people.
Russ: I, we just, I facilitate conversation and we're paying attention to what God, what God wants us to do. And then we ask, what do you wanna do? Um. And that means I'm a full participant.
Speaker: Okay?
Russ: And so I'm growing in the life of Christ, uh, every time we sit down in a meal together. And so, uh, I, most of the time I'm a spiritual parent.
Russ: You know, occasionally I'm a full pagan.[00:44:36]
Russ: But, uh, uh, but it doesn't matter where you're at, man. We had this, uh, beautiful young woman who, you know, deconstructed was her language, you know, and, uh, uh, but she stayed with us for a year. And then when one of the other women in that group. Started to launch out, she's continued to participate with her, uh, and her community.
Russ: And, um, and she, she's come back to us and said that was the safest church experience she ever had sitting around her table. You know? Um, [00:45:06] so if people are up for meaningful conversation, willing to have spiritual conversation, they can join in as long as we're willing to, you know, listen well, you know, and, uh, um.
Russ: And not try to fix anything. You know? So
Speaker: that's gonna be hard. I mean, that's when you're Yeah. Spiritual parent, uh, and the way you're describing mm-hmm. You just trust that Yeah. You're in a posture of like mm-hmm. We're listening, we're learning. We're, um, and we're also [00:45:36] receiving and we're not Yeah. Fixing, we don't feel like the, that pressure.
Speaker: 'cause I think that would, that would really be hard on it'll kill it. Location. Yeah. And yeah. Sustainability. Yeah.
Russ: Yeah. And there's a, there's a million resources out there on reflective listening. Mm-hmm. Like, that's a, it's a really helpful skill, but it, it's all it is again, but that's, Jesus says, you wanna have that solid and found it.
Russ: Listen to me. Right. Like, listening should be a skill that we're practicing, you know? [00:46:06] Then, uh, a skill of taking action, right? I'm gonna take, I'm gonna make movement. So, um, yeah. And then trusting the spirit to do what he does with it. Yeah.
Speaker: Very
Speaker 3: cool.
Speaker: Awesome. Yeah. Russ, anything else, uh, before we're, we conclude here that, that you're like, ah, as somebody's going into this journey, this might be an helpful thing to, to hear or know that you would want to add before we conclude here?
Russ: Yeah, I, so, you know, one of our, uh, key, uh, elements and the thing that [00:46:36] we pay attention to, like in a community, um, the, the question we, I want to answer is, did it take me less than 10 minutes to prep? Um, okay. It should take me less than 10 minutes. 'cause it should be that simple. Um, that's the word is, uh, this thing is way simpler.
Russ: Than I ever was making it. Uh, I've recognized how prone I've been to overcomplicating everything. Yeah. And so the, the more that we've been committed to can, [00:47:06] can this be simpler? Uh, can, can I do, can I do less and see God do more? Yeah. Um, mean what we've been learning is the less we do, the more we see him do.
Russ: That's good. And so the more we get out of the way.
Speaker: So I was really struck when you talked about, yeah. Slow. Simple and small. Yeah. There couldn't be three words that are more, uh, I think different than the way that I think so many people think about church. It's like, it's gotta be fast, it's gotta be mm-hmm.
Speaker: You know, it's gotta be this [00:47:36] multifaceted, super complex thing and it's gotta be, you know, super scalable. Um, you know. Big and, uh, crowded. And so yeah, that's, I, I think discipleship and there are things that have that, those characteristics, but discipleship. Yeah. Yeah. It can't multiply if it's not slow, if it's not simple, if it's not small.
Speaker: So, yeah. Um, yeah, it's a really good word. Awesome. It's goodness. Yeah. Thanks so much for jumping on here today. It's just super helpful. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Fun to talk my friend. [00:48:06] [00:48:36]
