Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:00:01] when it starts to catch fire, rather than them do the natural thing, which is to invite more [00:00:06] people into their group say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You go into somebody [00:00:11] else's group. Hmm. And if everybody is entering somebody else's group, [00:00:16] that is viral replication
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:00:21] [00:00:26] [00:00:31] [00:00:36] [00:00:41] [00:00:46] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the [00:00:51] podcast. I am joined today by Corey Hartman. Corey, thanks for jumping on here today. Yeah, glad to [00:00:56] be here, Jeremy. Yeah, so Corey is a part of a organization called New [00:01:01] Generations, and I am always on the hunt for how is God [00:01:06] moving in disciple making movements around the world and then always trying to figure out what are some [00:01:11] of the lessons that we can get.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: From those disciple making movements to what God might be doing [00:01:16] in our context in the West or in the us. And so Corey [00:01:21] maybe introduce yourself and then tell us a little, little bit about, uh, new generations. Sure. [00:01:26] So. Corey Hartman. I live in Central Pennsylvania. Uh, I've [00:01:31] lived here for 18 years and it's where my family roots are, although [00:01:36] most of my growing up years were in Central New York state.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so kind of both of those are, are [00:01:41] my home, so to speak. Um. My role with New Generations [00:01:46] is, the title, which is not very helpful, is, uh, [00:01:51] global Voice Developer. Uh, but basically what I do is, uh, I [00:01:56] interact with our partners who I'll describe here in a moment, um, to really [00:02:01] understand how disciple making movement stuff is happening throughout [00:02:06] where they're operating in many different places in the world.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: To distill and [00:02:11] clarify lessons that can help everybody who is concerned about the great commission to [00:02:16] actually put these things into practice, as well as, uh, helping to [00:02:21] strengthen and sharpen and improve the disciple makers within our own network. [00:02:26] So New Generations itself is a pretty unusual organization in how [00:02:31] it's designed or how it's structured, and it really can be seen in two ways.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: One [00:02:36] way is that it is a small. US religious [00:02:41] nonprofit. Okay. But the other way it can be seen is that, that that entity, [00:02:46] that small entity is the convener and connector of a [00:02:51] significant number of organizational partners [00:02:56] so that are located around the world. Uh. At present, mostly in [00:03:01] Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, but not exclusively in those places.[00:03:06]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And, um, through these core partners, they themselves have many partners which [00:03:11] create sort of a network of networks sort of a thing. And [00:03:16] amongst all of these, it's literally tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of disciple [00:03:21] makers that are operating around the globe. And over the last 20 years. [00:03:26] Um, we've seen 3.1 million new followers of Jesus [00:03:31] and something like 160,000 churches, um, that are [00:03:36] operating and that have happened among some of the least reached.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Groups of people in the world. You [00:03:41] know, we're talking in cases, certain cases like militant Muslim people [00:03:46] groups in Africa, or high caste Hindus in India, and all [00:03:51] sorts of other peoples as well. And so I really have the privilege of [00:03:56] interacting with a diverse, uh, group of people and understanding how they [00:04:01] tick and how things work, and to put those into words to help others in those places, [00:04:06] and even in the West and the United States as well.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Awesome. Yeah, there, there's this [00:04:11] disciple making movement that's erupting in some of these regions. So it sounds like part of what New Generations is doing is, [00:04:16] okay, we there, there needs to be someone who is connecting a lot of these different organizations [00:04:21] for these movements. Guys, I mentioned, um, that I met Harry, who I think is he the founder of New [00:04:26] Generations?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So Harry Brown is our founding president. Um, so [00:04:31] he, he has, has been our leader since the founding, actually, new Generations itself [00:04:36] as a thing called New Generations is not that old. Okay. But it's just, you [00:04:41] know, five or so years old. But, uh, maybe seven now. But [00:04:46] before that it was a division of another, of a previous ministry.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So it's, and, and Harry [00:04:51] was the, was the convener and lead of. This [00:04:56] sort of activity through that other ministry, and then the ministry spun new [00:05:01] generations off to be its own thing. So yeah, Harry Brown has been in that role, but he's actually [00:05:06] handing the baton, uh, over the course of a couple of years, which we're about three quarters of the way through [00:05:11] now, um, to our new president, Andy Lehman.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: But Harry's still staying [00:05:16] on in that sort of founder ambassador role. Awesome. Yeah. Tell me, tell me a little [00:05:21] bit about what Harry saw. That created the origin story for this [00:05:26] organization. Yeah, so it's a really interesting and unusual [00:05:31] situation. The, the, uh, the foundation, like the mother [00:05:36] organization, uh, is called city team.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Okay. City teams [00:05:41] birth was as your basic urban rescue mission [00:05:46] in San Jose, California. Okay. Wow. And, um. [00:05:51] Harry got involved with that as a young man in the 1970s [00:05:56] and took various roles in that organization. But something that that organization discovered [00:06:01] over time was that, you know, as their working [00:06:06] with low income urban people, often in situations with [00:06:11] massive family dysfunction, with economic deprivation, you know, [00:06:16] job deprivation, devastated communities, addiction, all kinds [00:06:21] of things with all the various work that they were doing among these, [00:06:26] these folks, and also winning them to Jesus Christ is that they found [00:06:31] that an essential. For anti-poverty [00:06:36] was making disciples of Jesus who obey him in everything he commands. Hmm.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Um, [00:06:41] that, that, uh, with all of the other material help that they were [00:06:46] providing and, um. You know, drug rehabilitation and so forth. [00:06:51] Uh, making disciples of Jesus who were being [00:06:56] transformed into the likeness of Christ was essential as an anti-poverty measure. So [00:07:01] they began to think and, and, and investigate, [00:07:06] alright, who around the world knows more than anybody else [00:07:11] about making disciples among low income people?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Hmm. And in the course [00:07:16] of that. Search. They came across a guy named David Watson. [00:07:21] David Watson, uh, was a, uh, [00:07:26] missionary with the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, [00:07:31] and he was what was called a non-residential missionary, meaning that he [00:07:36] had, uh, an objective to a certain people in a certain [00:07:41] country, but he could not legally get a visa to.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:07:46] Live residentially in that country. So he was having to figure out [00:07:51] how am I going to reach this people group of like [00:07:56] entirely lost people when I can't even be there. And so [00:08:01] he ended up interacting extensively with and mentoring. [00:08:06] A group of believers, Christians of that people group, [00:08:11] um, a, you know, tiny fraction, you know, minuscule fraction of that people group, [00:08:16] um, who had become believers in Christ.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And these were pastors of churches and so forth and [00:08:21] interacting with them to try to innovate away that the gospel could [00:08:26] spread. Virally and multi generationally through this people group. [00:08:31] And it worked. And so he then began [00:08:36] to, uh, spread what he learned to other people. And so Harry and um, Citi [00:08:41] team found out about him, brought him on to be part of, [00:08:46] uh, of Citi team.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And then as, as David was doing [00:08:51] this same sort of training then in various other places in the world. Some [00:08:56] missions organizations in East Africa in dig, or in Africa in general. Um, [00:09:01] indigenous organizations, these are Africans. Reaching Africans. Then through [00:09:06] David ended up getting connected to city team and then Harry became sort of their [00:09:11] convener.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Hmm. And that became the nucleus of what became New Generations. Okay. [00:09:16] Nice. I've heard a lot about David Watson and yeah, some of the movements [00:09:21] that spawned out of that. Um, and tell us a little bit about, so your intersection, I'd love to hear [00:09:26] just a little bit more about your story. How did you get involved?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Yeah, so, um, [00:09:31] my story is weird too. In fact, I'm pretty sure that everybody in this organization [00:09:36] has a weird story of how they got into it. I don't think there's any normal one. Um, [00:09:41] for me, uh, I was a local church pastor [00:09:46] of small churches in New Jersey and then Pennsylvania for 13 years. [00:09:51] Then, uh, December 31st, 2017, [00:09:56] uh, which was a Sunday.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: That was my last day, uh, doing that in a [00:10:01] role where I had been pastor of a particular church for 10 years, and within two [00:10:06] months I started doing something that I never dreamed of doing, which was to become a collaborative writer [00:10:11] for Christian leaders and organizations. And so that meant [00:10:16] that there would be a, a leader, a thinker.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Who was [00:10:21] brilliant and had great ideas and who usually was a very good talker [00:10:26] but needed help to get something into writing and uh, I [00:10:31] served various leaders in various organizations. To produce [00:10:36] various kinds of output, the most common one or most easy to understand, one being books. [00:10:41] Um, and uh, I ended up becoming full-time with [00:10:46] my major client who then took me on full-time and that was mostly in the church consulting realm.[00:10:51]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And, um, that person and, and colleague and friend [00:10:56] is Will Mancini and Will and I wrote together a book called [00:11:01] Future Church. The, the seven laws of real church [00:11:06] growth and that came out in 2020. And so I was [00:11:11] serving in that organization and one of the people that I met through that organization, someone who became, [00:11:16] uh, certified in some of our tools and processes and stuff.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Was a [00:11:21] member of the Board of New Generations and that organization that I was a part of ended [00:11:26] up dissolving in 2022. And when this guy found out about it, he sent me [00:11:31] a text message saying, Hey, are you available for international travel in two [00:11:36] weeks? This is, this is like about a month before my, my job was [00:11:41] coming to an end.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And I said, well, what did you have in mind? And so [00:11:46] he and new generations. Paid for me to go to Nairobi, Kenya [00:11:51] to an annual event called Catalyst Camp, and that's where I met [00:11:56] a whole bunch of these people. Now, before I got there in the, [00:12:01] you know, five years running up to that point, I had already gone through a pretty [00:12:06] radical rethink of a whole lot of things about [00:12:11] ministry.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: The end of my, uh, well, not just the end, but a whole lot of the middle of my [00:12:16] pastoral ministry was very, very hard and very, very frustrating and very, very disappointing. [00:12:21] And that, and then when I stepped out of that, there's something. There are [00:12:26] certain things that you just can't understand about your job until [00:12:31] you leave that job.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Hmm. Um, it does not matter how much you work. It does not matter how, what [00:12:36] coaching you get. It does not matter how many, three sixties or whatever. You simply cannot grasp it [00:12:41] until you're gone. Hmm. And when I was finally not in the role of being a congregational [00:12:46] pastor, there was a whole lot of stuff that I came to grasp about.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Church [00:12:51] that I could not grasp when I was in that role. And the people that I was [00:12:56] working with, especially in that church consulting group, were also people who were thinking in very outside the box [00:13:01] sort of ways. And so through that, that enabled me to really. [00:13:06] I mean, I kind of hate this word, but I'm gonna use it 'cause it's coming to mind, deconstruct, if [00:13:11] you will.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Mm-hmm. Um, my assumptions about [00:13:16] church and what church was and how it worked, and then reconstruct it from scripture. Um, and [00:13:21] not just by myself in a cave, but in dialogue with other people as well. [00:13:26] And, um, so I already had gone through pretty radical rethink about what church [00:13:31] ought to be, could be, should be, is whatever.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Then when I showed up in Nairobi [00:13:36] and when I showed up in Nairobi, I'm, I'm now talking to people and meeting [00:13:41] people who, if they were in the United States, um. The fruit that [00:13:46] they had was so incredible. They would have a book deal, they would have a podcast, they would be [00:13:51] headlining conferences, you know, I mean, it, it, you know, somebody who, yeah.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: You know, [00:13:56] in four years had a, you know, had given birth to a movement of 4,000 people [00:14:01] in like 10 generations among a totally unreached tribe, and. Um, [00:14:06] part-time while his full-time job is as a farmer, you know, and in the [00:14:11] meantime in the United States, we have no idea who this guy is and we'll never ever know his [00:14:16] name.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so I was meeting person after person after person like this. And so [00:14:21] when, uh, new generations extended the invitation for me to join them and to do [00:14:26] the sort of thing with them that I had been doing with others. I said, this is literally the [00:14:31] most important thing happening in the whole wide world. So, uh, the answer is yes.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so [00:14:36] that's how I ended up getting involved. Nice. All right. So there's a lot of [00:14:41] interesting threads there, Corey. So give me kind of a snapshot. What did you learn about the nature of the [00:14:46] church? Like what would you say, Hey. If you're speaking to your former pastor [00:14:51] self, yeah. Hey, this is what, this is what, this is what we're gonna learn, or this is, here's the truth, or Here's [00:14:56] what you're not seeing.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: What, uh, how would you describe that? Yeah, I, I would say that [00:15:01] lesson one, to try to help old Corey [00:15:06] or, or actually young Corey, lemme put it that way, former Corey, which is young Corey, [00:15:11] uh, to see his world a little bit better, it would be. [00:15:16] To, to first try to explain. Okay, so [00:15:21] there's, there's this word church, that's an English [00:15:26] word that has been around for many centuries.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Okay? [00:15:31] And then there's this word, which Corey, you know, because you [00:15:36] know Greek, there's this word in the scriptures, okay? [00:15:41] Mm-hmm. That meant something in the first century. Um, but for a [00:15:46] really, really long time, church has been, the English [00:15:51] word used to translate that Greek word. And the problem with [00:15:56] that is that the English word church very [00:16:01] genuinely and appropriately carries a whole lot of meaning based on [00:16:06] how it's been used by English speakers for like 800 plus years.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Mm-hmm. [00:16:11] And all that meaning. Was not in the heads of the people using the [00:16:16] word elicia in the first century when they were writing and talking about this at the [00:16:21] beginning of the Jesus movement. Mm. And so the first thing to [00:16:26] try to do is to recognize that the things that you see in the scriptures that are [00:16:31] describing elicia are true and good and real.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Yeah. And [00:16:36] the things that are what, like sociologically and [00:16:41] religiously church is, are true and real, and those [00:16:46] are different things. Hmm. And so Corey, what you're doing right now as the [00:16:51] pastor of a church is you're actually doing two things at the [00:16:56] same time that get. Like fuse together so nobody [00:17:01] is really able to tell 'em apart.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: The one thing that you're doing is that you are [00:17:06] the central figure and primary and [00:17:11] and greatest influencer at least once you've been there for a while, [00:17:16] um, of something that is legitimately an equia. It [00:17:21] is, it is a gathering of followers of Jesus. [00:17:26] Who get together to do Jesus things, okay? But [00:17:31] you're also, uh, at the same time, you are [00:17:36] the sole full-time and professional employee.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:17:41] With the responsibility to manage a religious [00:17:46] institution that has certain expectations and parameters [00:17:51] within the 21st century United States, and those two things [00:17:56] you wanna instinctively make as one thing. And Corey, I'm telling you, those [00:18:01] are two different things. All right? And you can conceivably do both.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:18:06] You'll have a better time of it if you recognize that you're doing two things and you're getting [00:18:11] paid to do the one and God has called you to do the other, and [00:18:16] you're wearing both of those hats simultaneously among the same group of people in the same place, [00:18:21] even though they're different entities in different roles.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Okay. That's how I would try to start. That's really [00:18:26] good. That's great. Just sort of lesson one, sort of like, you know, blue Pill. Yes. My [00:18:31] or Red pill my, my former self. That's good. So you saw something [00:18:36] that caused you to see this distinction for the first time. What did you see? And, and, [00:18:41] and for somebody in our context mm-hmm.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: If you were to take, you know, uh, [00:18:46] young Corey to see something that's gonna cause him to suddenly have this epiphany [00:18:51] that these are two separate things. Is that, is that because that's what's happening in these movements that you saw? [00:18:56] Like how did you see that these as suddenly see this as distinct?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: That's a, that's a [00:19:01] great question. You know, it started for me. In [00:19:06] 2017, when, which was the worst year of my life, um, very, very difficult [00:19:11] and going through a lot of, um, real strain in the ministry [00:19:16] setting. That's putting it mildly that that caused [00:19:21] bigger, like personal collapse for me and, and, [00:19:26] um, but, but a nutritious collapse.[00:19:31]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: In that it was breaking things apart that needed to be broken apart. [00:19:36] Okay. So there's all kinds of personal stuff there. Um, but in that, um, [00:19:41] one of the things that I started to encounter was just the whole [00:19:46] conversation about disciple making as a thing. Okay. [00:19:51] And, um. And so like an example of this was, you [00:19:56] know, the discipleship.org, national Disciple Making Forum, [00:20:01] Bobby Harrington, that sort of thing.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: You know, aggregation, uh, [00:20:06] I started to. Read eBooks that I found coming out of that [00:20:11] orbit and listening to podcasts and stuff. And, um, and in [00:20:16] the course of doing this and also some stuff not coming from there, but from like, [00:20:21] you know, Redeemer City to city stuff, you know, so there, there was some other of that [00:20:26] strain as well.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And, and in this, I, I started to. And counter this whole notion of [00:20:31] disciple making and revisiting the great commission with the different lens of disciples. Making [00:20:36] disciples. Making disciples. And how does disciple making. Unite and also [00:20:41] differ from evangelism and discipleship. You know, this, this sort of concept [00:20:46] and, and some of these notions that were floating around that and still are floating around that.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:20:51] And as I was doing that in my, um, assimilating this information [00:20:56] in my self-evaluation, in my ministry collapse and in my trauma [00:21:01] was coming to the conclusion I've been at this, [00:21:06] you know. Pastoring thing for 13 years now, and I've made no disciples [00:21:11] whatsoever, which means that I've basically been a failure this whole time, which was an [00:21:16] overstatement.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Um, that was not strictly true, but [00:21:21] there was truth to it. There was truth to it. And, and so, [00:21:26] um, so like that's how I started to recognize. I've been at this for [00:21:31] 13 years in a role, and I think I've, at a certain fundamental way, have been missing the whole [00:21:36] point of what I'm about supposed to be about. Hmm.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Um, and so then it was once [00:21:41] I left, then I had a, you know, a role of, in my, [00:21:46] as a father of doing something I had literally never done [00:21:51] as a father and hadn't done as an adult since like, you know, the [00:21:56] first two or three weeks of my marriage. Um, which also was like in the first two or three weeks of [00:22:01] seminary, uh, at age 22, which was find a church.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Like, [00:22:06] I had never done that. Like, I'd never like been like a normal Joe, like going around looking for a [00:22:11] church for his family to go to. Like, this is a new thing for me. And as [00:22:16] I'm doing that and going to these different churches, it just be, was so apparent to me, like my [00:22:21] word, the huge amount of time, [00:22:26] effort, energy.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: People power, money [00:22:31] poured into making Sunday morning work. I mean, like the [00:22:36] huge amount of institutional resources [00:22:41] solely devoted to making Sunday morning happen. And it, it was [00:22:46] like, I knew it as somebody who had done it, but as somebody now just like as [00:22:51] a, as a recipient of it, like as part of the audience.[00:22:56]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: It was just unmistakable and it was just like, oh my gosh, the tail is wagging the [00:23:01] dog so hard and is in hundreds of thousands of churches [00:23:06] for like decades or centuries. It was, it was, it was really [00:23:11] shocking, you know? So that was, those were some of the stimuli that started to rework things [00:23:16] for me. Okay. I think, I think what, what it seems like where people get locked up [00:23:21] is those observations.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: I think that they're like, all right, there is something [00:23:26] there, but I can't see an alternative. Right. And one, one of the questions I'm, I [00:23:31] frequently ask people, we, we do different bible studies like discovery, bible studies, story form, life, uh, [00:23:36] this process where we're kind of like looking at different passages in the Bible about the church.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And I oftentimes [00:23:41] try to try to run a thought experiment. Just say, if all you had were these passages and [00:23:46] you were like, what? What do you think is going to come out of this? Like what, what is, what do you imagine these people are [00:23:51] gonna start doing? Or what do you think they were doing? Mm-hmm. Um, and just like try to construct from first [00:23:56] principles what this EIA thing is.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Yeah. Like most people have never even done that [00:24:01] exercise. Oh, right. They've built it on, as you described. You know, [00:24:06] centuries of assumptions and linguistic, uh, changes and, and just there's a, and then they [00:24:11] read it back into the Bible. So to actually start from the Bible, but, but, but, um, so I think that's useful, but that's [00:24:16] also somewhat theoretical.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So I'm curious, like, it seems like in your journey there was [00:24:21] also there, uh, encountering other ideas. Um, and so yeah. [00:24:26] What, how would you describe like yeah, what did you see? Yeah, absolutely. So, [00:24:31] um. Really when I, the, the point at which I [00:24:36] really saw like flesh and blood [00:24:41] manifestation of something really different was starting with that first trip to Nairobi.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Like [00:24:46] that's really where it started. Now, prior to that, there was certainly a lot of stuff I was [00:24:51] doing that was, and, and, and designing and [00:24:56] talking about and so forth that was intended to. [00:25:01] Reinstall or rebirth disciple making [00:25:06] as a real thing within the existing church. And so, so it's [00:25:11] not as though I was not involved in, in very positive stuff and, and my [00:25:16] colleagues from that time are still.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: People I love and are [00:25:21] still working at that very thing and are helping a lot of churches. And I, I praise God for that. [00:25:26] I can say. And, and a and a, and a number of them had a, had a good deal, [00:25:31] more personal flesh and blood experience with good disciple making than [00:25:36] I had. Okay. Yeah. But for me, it really, it [00:25:41] really became apparent once I started to see what was going on in other places in the [00:25:46] world.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Um, and, and. To describe it, it basically goes like [00:25:51] this, the, the heart of a disciple making movement, which I'm [00:25:56] just gonna put a little bookmark there that maybe we'll return to, which is distinguishing the [00:26:01] technical term, disciple making movement from other things that have the last name movement. Okay.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:26:06] But, but what we mean by a disciple making movement is that [00:26:11] first and foremost, it's a chain reaction. So the, [00:26:16] you know, a, a chain reaction like fire, right? You've got. You've got [00:26:21] carbon in this thing, you've got oxygen in that thing. It takes heat to then [00:26:26] cause the carbon in the oxygen to get together and make carbon dioxide and the heat that [00:26:31] comes from that then gets the next bit of carbon to take the next bit of oxygen.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And it's a chain reaction. And the [00:26:36] whole log burns, we see that in the form of flame, but, but it's a chain reaction [00:26:41] that's working the way, all the way through that log. Once it has enough to get started. [00:26:46] So a chain, so a disciple making movement is a chain reaction and it's a chain reaction that [00:26:51] runs through ordinary people.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so by ordinary people, I [00:26:56] mean really who, whoever is average for, for [00:27:01] its society. So like if you take. Whatever the sort of group of people are that you're [00:27:06] describing, whether that's an ethnolinguistic group or it's a social class, or you [00:27:11] know, an affinity, uh, you know, all the dog walkers in Cincinnati or whatever, you [00:27:16] know mm-hmm.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Whatever your group is. Um, if you take the, the person in that [00:27:21] group with average intelligence, average talent, average [00:27:26] leadership ability, uh, average way with words, average charisma, average [00:27:31] magnetism. Average money, uh, average everything, right? [00:27:36] And then maybe get like a notch or two below that, uh, we're talking about [00:27:41] something that can run through those people and, and, and everybody else, right?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: You know, from top to bottom. Of [00:27:46] course, you're gonna have within that group, um. [00:27:51] Strong natural leader type people. I'm not denying that, but, but [00:27:56] the chain reaction is not dependent on the strong natural leader people. It's, it's [00:28:01] running through the average Joes, if you will. And those [00:28:06] average Joes are people who are following Jesus, um, [00:28:11] as people who are learning and trying to obey everything that Jesus [00:28:16] commanded.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: The the 12. And they are helping [00:28:21] others to do the same, and that's running through their natural social networks. [00:28:26] And the way that it manifests isn't mainly [00:28:31] individual. So it's not a thing where like Jeremy makes Corey a [00:28:36] disciple and Corey makes John a disciple and John makes Steve a [00:28:41] disciple. It's not that, it's more like.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: In the [00:28:46] world in which we live, though, it varies. This is another bookmark. Possibly. It [00:28:51] varies between traditional rural societies and modern urban societies. But in the world that [00:28:56] we live, people collect in groups, and what [00:29:01] happens is that somebody who has the gospel receives [00:29:06] entry into that preexisting social group.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: As the gospel [00:29:11] through the scriptures takes hold within that group. That group as [00:29:16] a group becomes followers of Jesus. And when they do that, that group that [00:29:21] already existed as a something else, as a family, as a friend group, as a whatever. [00:29:26] Now becomes an iia. Hmm. And people in that group [00:29:31] also have a foot in some other group 'cause Oh yeah.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: My brother-in-law over here, or my, my [00:29:36] coworker over there, or my friend over here or whatever. And they do the same [00:29:41] thing into that person's group. That the first person did in their group. And [00:29:46] then that happens there. And then someone from there does the same in those groups. And so it [00:29:51] spreads from social group to social group to social group to social group, and it ends up going through the whole [00:29:56] society.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And that's a disciple making movement. And so I, I've, I've had enough [00:30:01] conversations now of people who catalyze these or who became [00:30:06] disciples within these to and, and have even sat in bits and pieces of them [00:30:11] happening. To, to know that it's real. Yeah, man. Yeah, that's really [00:30:16] good. The, I, I, I think probably the, what I've always wondered or [00:30:21] kind of believed in the last 20 years, we've tried to understand, you [00:30:26] know, a biblical ecclesiology is that maybe the thing that be witches or distorts [00:30:31] people's understanding of LAC more than anything else in our [00:30:36] context is that we no longer have.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: In our culture, the [00:30:41] Ocos. Um, like when, when the Holy Spirit came on [00:30:46] Pentecost, uh, I don't think that Peter and the Apostles were sitting around saying, okay, what kind of church model do you guys wanna start? You [00:30:51] wanna try a mega church? You wanna do house church? It was just like they already had these [00:30:56] pre-existing, um, ocos is these households, and that was the way that everything [00:31:01] was structured back then.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so what you see is that. The [00:31:06] gospel just started to run through the O Casses. And these O Casses were, [00:31:11] um, they already had a spiritual life in them. I mean, the, the, the Patra Famis in the Roman [00:31:16] context or the, the, uh, the head of the household, the, the father, um, the [00:31:21] be of the, the, the, the father of the house in the Jewish context.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: These guys, [00:31:26] they, they were responsible for the religious life of the family, and there was all kinds of religious [00:31:31] rhythms that were happening. Um, in, in the house, in the synagogue, and, you know, in some context or in the [00:31:36] pagan context, you know, these temples or whatever, they would, they would facilitate and help, [00:31:41] but they were a small percentage of what was really the, the religious life was, was in the [00:31:46] ocos.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so you would disciple an ocos and that's why you saw all these households salvations [00:31:51] happening in acts and what, that's why that was so strategic and what's so confusing to us. In our [00:31:56] context. I mean, I was always taught that oh, they, they did, they did things in households [00:32:01] because they were of persecution and, uh, as opposed to, that's just the most obvious thing [00:32:06] you would do when there's no persecution.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: It was still the, the, the [00:32:11] central location of the spiritual life of all those families, Passover and the Sabbath, and [00:32:16] all of these religious traditions or. All the traditions that were the hearth fire that would happen in the [00:32:21] pagan Roman household. Like these things were central. Now what, what I've been, [00:32:26] so I've, I've kinda immersed myself in first century.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Um, culture just, just in [00:32:31] terms of both, like within the Roman Greco-Roman world and, and in the, and in the, um, [00:32:36] Jewish world. Uh, and so I, I see this structure and I'm like, it's [00:32:41] so clear how this would facilitate disciple making movements and that this structure still exists in a [00:32:46] lot of cultures. What I find really, really confusing is [00:32:51] how do you handle this in a context where that's starting to break down and people are [00:32:56] becoming hyper individualistic.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And this is, I think, part of the, the [00:33:01] real challenge. Um, so I'm curious, yeah. Any reflections on, on the tension between the, [00:33:06] the, the existence of the ocos and the implications for that for the LAC in the first century, and then [00:33:11] what do we, how do we handle that in different cultural context stay where that may be breaking down?[00:33:16]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Yeah, that is an excellent question, Jeremy. And I agree with everything you said. I mean, the [00:33:21] whole description that you gave is right on the money and it's, it's very true. [00:33:26] The, the. The urban, the, the [00:33:31] modern city is like an acid [00:33:36] bath that breaks apart the bonds of relationships. Yeah, it's, it's [00:33:41] really extraordinary.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: It takes the, the natural [00:33:46] condition of humanity for millennia from [00:33:51] before written history is. Grouped [00:33:56] and that one's identity is found in a group that one did [00:34:01] not choose, you know, one was born into this group. Um, [00:34:06] and that whe whether you're talking a hunter gatherer band or you're talking [00:34:11] about a large family farming the same plot or [00:34:16] hurting the same livestock, that's, or, or, and even it's [00:34:21] still, as you pointed out.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Even the urbanization of [00:34:26] the Roman Empire, which was some pretty doggone intense urbanization. I [00:34:31] mean, they say that Rome had a million people in it with a population [00:34:36] density that is greater than almost any city in the world today. [00:34:41] So it was super duper urban, but even there. [00:34:46] Somehow the strength of the, the OCO structure still existed.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:34:51] So, but, but modern urbanism is just a different thing. And it's not [00:34:56] just in the west. We see the same thing happening, um, wherever urbanization is [00:35:01] taking place in the world. Um, it's just that it's way more advanced here. So, getting to your [00:35:06] question, um, what's different? So. Th [00:35:11] there are to be, you know, full disclosure, this [00:35:16] is still a work in progress.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: It's all a work in progress. The code is still in the process of [00:35:21] being cracked. Um, so what I'm not gonna give is not the, the be all, end all [00:35:26] final answer. What I can say is three [00:35:31] approaches, or three alternatives, or three things that happen that. Are [00:35:36] all real. Okay. One is that to some extent the oil [00:35:41] coast still does exist.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: It's just a whole lot weaker, but [00:35:46] where it primarily exists is not in the [00:35:51] family. So. The family as [00:35:56] we tend to practice it, is the so-called nuclear family, which is a [00:36:01] much, much smaller entity than a first century O coast, [00:36:06] which had like grown unmarried sisters, had [00:36:11] slaves, you know, had just a whole lot more people in it.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Okay. Just a bigger thing. [00:36:16] Um. And extended family and so forth. Um, the, the main place where Oy Coast exists [00:36:21] today is that there still are social circles. I mean, there still are groups of people that [00:36:26] are patterned around each other that do stuff together. Okay. [00:36:31] Um, some of them small, like I'm in a book club with five people.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: I'm one of the five, [00:36:36] some of them a bit larger, where it's the people who always show up in this [00:36:41] coffee shop between 1:00 PM and 4:00 PM. And, [00:36:46] you know, it's a rather larger group of people than that, you know. So, um, [00:36:51] it shows up in, in work teams. It shows up in teams that play a sport [00:36:56] together or, you know, a bowling league or whatever.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So you, you still have these things and in [00:37:01] any social group. There's always somebody who is the center of that group. [00:37:06] There's always an individual that if that person wasn't there, the thing is gonna fall [00:37:11] apart. Um, and it's, it's often, uh, [00:37:16] not formal, right? It's often unspoken. Sometimes it's [00:37:21] formal, sometimes it's not, but it's real.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: It's the person that if [00:37:26] somebody says, if somebody in the group says, Hey, let's do this. [00:37:31] If the, the center of the circle says, yes, let's do it, it's gonna [00:37:36] happen. And if they don't say Yes, let's do it. Then it won't. I mean, it, it's that kind of person. [00:37:41] And that person can still be the person of peace following [00:37:46] Matthew 10.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Luke 10, which you're, which you're audience might be familiar with, um, [00:37:51] can still be the person of peace for that social circle. Like that can still function as noco now [00:37:56] it's not nearly as dense, it's not nearly as strong in ancient. [00:38:01] Ancient first century, the pot, their familias. If he says family, this is [00:38:06] what we're gonna do.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: That's what the family's gonna do. Um, that's not true for us [00:38:11] today. Even the center of the circle, if that person says, you know what? This time we're gonna have a [00:38:16] discovery Bible study, there's gonna be some people in the circle who don't show up to that. It's [00:38:21] it, there's not quite the same stickiness, but there's still some stickiness.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And so that [00:38:26] still can be used and it still can run through those. So that's mm-hmm. [00:38:31] Route one. Route two is that we have a lot of lonely [00:38:36] people. We have a lot of people who aren't [00:38:41] part of any circle. I mean, it's an epidemic. It's, it's bad news. I mean, it's a public health emergency. It's [00:38:46] a serious, serious, serious thing.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And in the course of going [00:38:51] out to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom you're gonna run into, and [00:38:56] if the Holy Spirit is Dr, if the father is drawing them. You're gonna end [00:39:01] up picking up like a magnet, picking up iron filings, lonely people. [00:39:06] And if God is drawing lonely people to himself, then [00:39:11] sometimes what you do is you make a group made up out of the lonely people who now are not lonely [00:39:16] anymore.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Now, they're probably not directly gonna be your bridge [00:39:21] into other groups. It's not gonna be the source of viral reproduction, although [00:39:26] over time as they grow in Christ. They might be other people who are going out to proclaim [00:39:31] the gospel of the kingdom and trying to find other oco. So that could conceivably happen.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: But the third [00:39:36] route is that you might take an honest look at yourself and say, you know, [00:39:41] maybe I am the person of peace. I mean, like maybe there's a social group that, if I'm really [00:39:46] honest, I am the center of that circle. Like, I'm the person that if I say let's do it, it [00:39:51] happens. And if I don't say Let's do it, it's not gonna happen.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So it's up to me [00:39:56] to bring the gospel into my own social circle, into my own oco, um, such [00:40:01] as it is, and to try to introduce it that way. So it's through those kinds of [00:40:06] activities in a individualistic, societally, you know, [00:40:11] fragmented society. That you can recapture some of the magic of [00:40:16] the highly communal sort of place, even though ours [00:40:21] isn't.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So those are some of the ideas that, and some of the ways that it begins to, that, that the, [00:40:26] that the fire begins to catch. Yeah, man. That's really good. [00:40:31] Yeah, those are, that's super helpful and I appreciate what you're saying too about the code. We're still trying to crack this [00:40:36] thing. Yeah. And that, that's, you know, this is, this is kind of, uh, [00:40:41] you know, the constant conversation that I want to have in, in terms of like, what, what does it take to do [00:40:46] this?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: And, and, um. It's so clear as you described, that chain reaction, [00:40:51] that there are cultures in which, because those bonds are so clear that that fire can just [00:40:56] burn right through and you see this movement erupt. Mm-hmm. And that what I [00:41:01] have been on the hunt for, and this is kinda be my last question for you, Corey.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Are [00:41:06] there movements in Western context that are getting past the fourth generation? Are there any [00:41:11] disciple making movements? I, I know that sometimes within certain ethnic groups or within prisons or places [00:41:16] where there are different, uh, but, but within a normal Western context that has been infected with.[00:41:21]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: All of the, uh, sort of that urban, uh, culture and been in, been [00:41:26] saturated in that acid bath that you mentioned. Um, um, so my questions are, number one, are [00:41:31] you aware of places where this is working? And, um, and then number two. [00:41:36] Yeah, any other, um, what are, what, what are we discovering about how [00:41:41] to create chain reactions within these kinds of, you know, really challenging hyper individualistic [00:41:46] contexts?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Right. First of all, as far as what I know, [00:41:51] I can tell you that the, that the person who is the world's [00:41:56] expert in the counting [00:42:01] basically the, the census or the demography of [00:42:06] church planting movements, disciple making movements, is a guy named Justin Long. And [00:42:11] Justin Long is acquainted with, um. [00:42:16] Many, many of the organizations and networks, [00:42:21] uh, that are catalyzing these.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Okay? And so [00:42:26] he, he takes in, he aggregates what those different [00:42:31] groups have internally assessed and he puts it all together. [00:42:36] Um, he says there are movements [00:42:41] in like legitimate beyond fourth generation. Movements [00:42:46] in Europe, some that are among [00:42:51] Europeans, like they're not just among refugees, they're not [00:42:56] just among, you know, immigrants, migrants.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Okay. Um, [00:43:01] but the nature of a lot of these things is that they are, [00:43:06] and very appropriately. Highly sensitive to [00:43:11] not being known and publicized for the sake of the movement, [00:43:16] like for the sake of the movement continuing to move. I got it. And there are different reasons for this. I mean, in context [00:43:21] of persecution, it's because you don't want the thing to be crushed.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Right? But [00:43:26] in context where it's not persecution, it's because you don't want a stampede of Christians to come and [00:43:31] check it out. And then all of a sudden it's now like there's Christians everywhere and you can't find [00:43:36] lost people anymore. Hmm. Um, which it can super duper happen. Okay. Now, for me [00:43:41] personally, do I know of ones beyond the fourth generation?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: I do not. Do I know [00:43:46] of some that are getting closer to it? Yes, I do. I do know of some [00:43:51] in the United States that are into like the third [00:43:56] generation, which is saying something because a year or two ago they were in the second. Yeah. You know, so like, that's, yes. It's [00:44:01] hard to happen, right? Yeah. Like it's, it's legitimate progress, like, um.[00:44:06]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: There's a, there's a fellow named, uh, Brent Hoffen, who [00:44:11] operates in the Pacific Northwest, and he is part of a, of a, of [00:44:16] a broader group called eLife. And um, and, and [00:44:21] he's seen some things happen in the northwest, in the Pacific Northwest that are really [00:44:26] exciting, somebody that I have, have had more personal interaction with, um, [00:44:31] is multiple generations getting into second and close to maybe third by [00:44:36] now? I'm not sure. Um, among college [00:44:41] students and, uh, recent college [00:44:46] graduates at a very much, you know, uh, [00:44:51] non. Evangelical situation, [00:44:56] uh, university situation in the Midwest.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Um, and it, and [00:45:01] it's, it's happening in just a very grassroots way. It's a, and it's a, [00:45:06] where it started in on a college campus. Um, one of the leaders of [00:45:11] it, more than one of the leaders graduated. Continuing to do it both in the college campus and in [00:45:16] their current place of employment and with their high school friends who are still local, you know, and stuff is going that [00:45:21] way.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So it, you know, I, from what I personally know, I don't, I [00:45:26] don't know of those yet. But I do know that like there's situations that [00:45:31] are legitimately measurably objectively closer to that than they were two, two years [00:45:36] ago. Awesome. And so like, I think we're gonna get there. Like we're like, you know, in [00:45:41] another couple of years you might have me on this podcast and I could have something different to say.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: So [00:45:46] honestly, I think we're going in that, in that direction. Awesome. Yeah. And would you, was there, is there any [00:45:51] single, um, variable that you would call out as like, [00:45:56] okay, this is the one. In, in this context, if you want to, if you wanna see a chain reaction happen [00:46:01] in the west, you know, if, if I have to, like, you know, is there something that you would call out as being this is, [00:46:06] this is the dynamic you really have to get right?
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Or, you know, what, what's the closest we are to [00:46:11] kind of cracking that code? Is there any, anything you'd call out as being kinda a, a major variable? [00:46:16] Yeah, so I, I think first of all, I'd say that. I'd probably give like [00:46:21] six variables. Okay. So I, and that's, that's SA multivariable problem, [00:46:26] actually. Well, so that's, that's part of the, part of the challenge.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: There [00:46:31] are certain things that if you don't have all of it, you don't have any of it. Mm, that's true. [00:46:36] And this is one of those things. Yeah. And so the effort of, okay, well I'm gonna take what I'm already doing. I'm gonna add [00:46:41] this one thing, and that'll help. Well, it, it, it probably will [00:46:46] help.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Yeah. But it won't, it won't therefore [00:46:51] give birth to a disciple making movement. Right. But I will tell you one thing. I will answer the [00:46:56] question by telling you one thing that I would say has been the biggest lesson for me. Okay. [00:47:01] Okay, great. And I've already, I've already touched on it already in our conversation today, and [00:47:06] the biggest lesson for me is that everything that I've, [00:47:11] that I had ever.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Experienced been [00:47:16] taught to do or tried to do in [00:47:21] my whole ministerial life. Paid or unpaid, [00:47:26] involved making a group happen. [00:47:31] Hmm. Okay. It involved, uh, inviting people to my [00:47:36] group, starting a group. Or being made leader of a [00:47:41] group and trying to get other people come into that group. But, but what it all had in [00:47:46] common, whether you're talking about a church or a worship service or a small group [00:47:51] Bible study or uh, a an outreach activity, what they all [00:47:56] had in common is I am leading a group and I'm trying to [00:48:01] get people to come to my group.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: The, the. [00:48:06] Most important early mental shift for me is the [00:48:11] recognition that groups already exist and [00:48:16] that to start a disciple making movement. I it if I [00:48:21] do it by bringing people into my group. I've already failed before. I've [00:48:26] begun. Even if I succeed, I fail. Even if I succeed, [00:48:31] I fail. Um. What I need to do is I need to get [00:48:36] adopted into some other group, some other group that already exists, some social [00:48:41] circle that's already there.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Now, the exception is what I said is route three before, which is if I'm [00:48:46] already the central figure of some group, that's a different matter. If I'm already that, I gotta, I [00:48:51] gotta leverage that. But if I'm not that, then I gotta get [00:48:56] myself and with me, the gospel and the Bible. Into a group that already [00:49:01] exists.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Hmm. And the people in that group, when it starts to catch fire, rather than [00:49:06] them do the natural thing, which is to invite more people into their group to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [00:49:11] You go into somebody else's group. Hmm. And if everybody is [00:49:16] entering somebody else's group, that is viral replication. Got [00:49:21] it.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Because that's what a virus does. Yeah. A virus enters a group of [00:49:26] cells called a human body. Yes. And it changes that body. Yeah. And [00:49:31] then that body spreads the virus to another group of cells called a body. And that's how it [00:49:36] goes. That's what real viral. It's not just a bunch of viruses [00:49:41] grouping together.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: Yeah, right. It's not a bunch of viruses that say We got something good here, [00:49:46] let's group together and, and let's invite other people to be part of our group of viruses. That [00:49:51] that's not viral. That's not viral. Uh, that's, yeah. Okay. That's super helpful. [00:49:56] Thank you so much, Corey. Okay. Awesome. Alright, well, I really appreciate your time.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: This has been an awesome [00:50:01] conversation. Um, that's been really helpful. please let people know like any, any place where they could be following new [00:50:06] generations and would you call out any, um, yeah, any resources that, that you'd recommend that people get ahold of? [00:50:11] Oh, absolutely. So, uh, for starters, if people want [00:50:16] more, if people want more, like, you know, regular disciple making content, [00:50:21] um, and even access to other people who are trying to catalyze disciple making [00:50:26] movements, go to new generations.network.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: That's actually a website.network [00:50:31] is is an actual domain. That's a real thing. Um, so go to new generations. [00:50:36] Make, don't forget the S, it's multiple generations. It's not one. It's new [00:50:41] generations. Plural network and, uh, and, [00:50:46] and sign up there. You look at our resources there and put in your, your email address there and you'll [00:50:51] be able to get more stuff and, uh, that's really the best place to go to start.[00:50:56]
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: There is a course that we run periodically called the Habits Course, habits of a [00:51:01] Multiplying Disciple. And it's a way that you and the people around you, the [00:51:06] people with you, can begin to put these principles into practice where you are. And, uh, to [00:51:11] begin to, to see what God will do, uh, in your social network.
Release Dec 2025 ASAP: [00:51:16] Excellent. So good. Corey, thank you so much for jumping on here today. I really appreciate it. This is great, Jeremy. It has [00:51:21] been a huge pleasure and an honor, so thanks very much for having me. [00:51:26] [00:51:31] [00:51:36] [00:51:41] [00:51:46] [00:51:51] [00:51:56] [00:52:01] [00:52:06] [00:52:11] [00:52:16] [00:52:21]
