[00:00:01]
Jeremy: Is
Jeremy: there one true church?
Jeremy: And is our job to find it and submit to it, no matter what [00:00:06] its traditions and how it might impact our spiritual health? Or are there a bunch of different [00:00:11] expressions of the church, and is it appropriate to ask which one is going to help me and my [00:00:16] household thrive the best given who we are, given what season we're in?
Jeremy: How do we deal [00:00:21] with this issue?
Jeremy: So my name's [00:00:26] Jeremy. I'm a part of 1000 Houses where we activate households to disciple the city. And this has [00:00:31] been a very difficult question for people to answer and I think that Jesus actually gives us [00:00:36] a compelling way to just frame this whole issue. And I [00:00:41] wish so many more people when they approach this question, uh, would really dive into this.
Jeremy: So we're not gonna [00:00:46] do a deep dive on ecclesiology. I did stir up to like, is there one true church? But I think one of the reasons [00:00:51] why I'm a Protestant, I don't believe that only one expression of the church is the only legitimate [00:00:56] expression.
Jeremy: Is partially because of what Jesus says here, what he envisions and what he [00:01:01] does when he's confronted with these different traditions.
Jeremy: And the way that he does this [00:01:06] is he tells this really interesting parable about wineskins. But what I want you guys to [00:01:11] see is that we have within Matthew, mark and Luke, three different versions [00:01:16] of this story. And they're all very similar. They all are very compatible. [00:01:21] They end slightly differently. Matthew, mark, and Luke give us different [00:01:26] nuances, and if you put these together, you get an incredibly helpful framework for how to [00:01:31] understand how to deal with this question.
Jeremy: So let's dive in. We have to start by really understanding what's going on in [00:01:36] these passages. The first one we're gonna look at is Matthew nine 14 through 17. [00:01:41] And, uh, what happens here? It says, then the disciples of John came to him saying, this is Jesus. [00:01:46] Why do we in the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?
Jeremy: And Jesus asked them, [00:01:51] can the wedding guests mourn? As long as the bridegroom is with them, the days will [00:01:56] come when the bridegroom's taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of [00:02:01] shrunk cloth on an old garment where the patch tears away from the garment and a [00:02:06] worse tear is made.
Jeremy: Neither is new wine put into old wine skins. If it is the [00:02:11] skin's burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed, but [00:02:16] new wine is put into fresh wine skin, and so both [00:02:21] are preserved.
Jeremy: Okay,
Jeremy: So the, just to frame up the story, John, the Baptist disciples [00:02:26] are coming to Jesus Now. Jesus was much harsher when the Pharisees asked questions like this about [00:02:31] traditions, but I think he was a lot softer, uh, with the disciples of John the Baptist.
Jeremy: [00:02:36] And they're like, look, it's a season of fasting. We fast. The Pharisees are fasting. [00:02:41] We've been hanging out with your disciples. They're not fasting. What's going on? Why aren't [00:02:46] you participating in these traditions? Jesus tells them [00:02:51] the story about this shrunk cloth, uh, bridegroom shrunk cloth, and then ultimately, [00:02:56] uh, wineskins.
Jeremy: Now what's really interesting about this particular account in [00:03:01] Matthew, he ends by saying, but new wine is put into fresh wine skins, [00:03:06] and so both are preserved. The story is that if you put this new wine. [00:03:11] Into, uh, old wineskins. It'll both destroy the old wineskin [00:03:16] and it will spill the new wine.
Jeremy: What he seems to be saying here is that his [00:03:21] disciples are like new wine.
Jeremy: starting something new, something different. [00:03:26] And so this tradition, this particular fasting tradition that Jesus is [00:03:31] not saying anything against, he's calling that an old wine skin. He's saying what you guys are doing and [00:03:36] participating in is an old wine skin.
Jeremy: The problem is I have new wine, and the thing that [00:03:41] Matthew is really keen to emphasize is the preservation of both. I think that [00:03:46] one of the things that Matthew was very keen on is to preserve the understanding that that part of the reason [00:03:51] why new wine needs to go into new wine skin is not just for the sake of the wine.
Jeremy: Also [00:03:56] for the sake of the old wine skin, you don't want to burst that old wine skin. Okay, so that was the [00:04:01] emphasis of Matthew nine. We go to Mark two and you have a similar story, but it ends a little bit differently, [00:04:06] he says, and no one puts new wine into old wine skins. This is mark two, around [00:04:11] 2122. If he does, the wine will burst the skins and the wine is [00:04:16] destroyed and so are the skins.
Jeremy: But new wine,
Jeremy: is for fresh. Wine [00:04:21] skins. Okay. So the emphasis here
Jeremy: is
Jeremy: that the new [00:04:26] wine needs to be put into fresh wine skins. And so he's a little bit more, [00:04:31] uh, focused on how do we do what is in the best interest of the new [00:04:36] wine? That's, that's really what he's describing here, that new wine is [00:04:41] for new wine skins.
Jeremy: Okay, so your particular. [00:04:46] Traditions that you're participating in, is not designed for [00:04:51] the new wine. Uh, what we need is fresh new wine skins for [00:04:56] the new wine Now. That's a lot of clarity, I think. [00:05:01] But then he says something, uh, in Luke five, this is again the same [00:05:06] story, the disciples of John, uh, same parables, but it ends a little bit [00:05:11] differently.
Jeremy: So he says,
Jeremy: but the new wine, this is Luke five, must be put into [00:05:16] fresh wine skins. Then he has this and no one after [00:05:21] drinking old wine desires new. For, he says the old is good. [00:05:26] Wow. Okay. That's a really interesting nuance to add to [00:05:31] this discussion. He says that, if you have, if you've [00:05:36] ever experienced old wine, if you have the capacity to appreciate old wine, um, [00:05:41] you are going to enjoy that better.
Jeremy: And he really is suggesting that there is something [00:05:46] qualitatively better about old wine. Does this contradict what he's been [00:05:51] saying earlier in this passage or what he says in Matthew, what he says in Mark. I think the framework is [00:05:56] the important question when deciding on a wine skin is [00:06:01] the type of wine.
Jeremy: If it's new, it's going to want new wine skin. If it's [00:06:06] old, it's gonna want old wine skin. And if it has a capacity to appreciate [00:06:11] old wine, then the better. The older, the tradition, these ancient [00:06:16] traditions are actually in some ways better because as a matter of taste, [00:06:21] you're gonna enjoy it more.
Jeremy: There's something deeper, and this is very true, of course, about wine. I mean, so the fact that he's [00:06:26] talking about this, he's saying anybody who understands how wine works, it really is a connoisseur of [00:06:31] wine. You tend to appreciate old wine more than new wine.
Jeremy: all right [00:06:36] there, there's a lot here.
Jeremy: I think that really helps answer, I think, one of the most divisive and most, [00:06:41] uh, kind of confusing questions that people ask about, okay, [00:06:46] how do I pick a church tradition for my family and in this season?
Jeremy: and this
Jeremy: [00:06:51] This really makes sense of something that, that I've seen my whole life that has been deeply confusing to me.
Jeremy: So [00:06:56] oftentimes I'll hear from people, particularly in, you know, very, uh, I would [00:07:01] say like secret friendly or very progressive, um, in terms of [00:07:06] traditions, new wineskins, churches that are like, very much [00:07:11] like trying to be hyper relevant. If you are ever a part of those [00:07:16] churches, one of the things you'll discover very quickly.
Jeremy: is
Jeremy: Some of the people who are the [00:07:21] most committed and most excited about that church grew up [00:07:26] in old traditions like a Catholic family, uh, or an Orthodox [00:07:31] family. And there was something about those traditions that were, that was not connecting with them, they [00:07:36] found them very lifeless. And then maybe they went off to a, like a, a young life camp or [00:07:41] some kind of experience and they hear, heard and experienced the gospel in some [00:07:46] powerful way.
Jeremy: They really often want nothing to do with that [00:07:51] old wine scan because they feel like it got in the way of their faith. What they start to look for is a new [00:07:56] wine scan and they, once they find it, they're just like their faith erupts. If you've [00:08:01] ever seen this experience, this is so repeatable, such a common experience, and it's very [00:08:06] difficult to say, oh, you know what would've been way better is if they didn't go to that camp.
Jeremy: They never [00:08:11] found that church tradition. What they needed to do, which is stay in that old wineskin and even if it [00:08:16] completely did not connect with them and they never felt at home there or [00:08:21] they ever found God, the most important thing is that they stay in the old wineskin.
Jeremy: There are a lot [00:08:26] of
Jeremy: A lot of people believe that.
Jeremy: Um, I don't believe that. I think that's a really important thing that they needed [00:08:31] to discover the gospel. Doesn't say that. That old wine skin was ultimately [00:08:36] at fault. This was new wine, and it did need new wine skin. So why can't we celebrate the fact that [00:08:41] these people who are coming out of an old wine skin, that to them was [00:08:46] lifeless because they were new wine, needed a new wine skin.
Jeremy: [00:08:51] Now the other part of the story is oftentimes you'll find somebody who grew up in one of these [00:08:56] maybe evangelical churches that's like really trying to be relevant. And they've got the fog machine and they've got the cool band. [00:09:01] And
Jeremy: as somebody grows up and they go deeper and deeper and deeper into [00:09:06] their faith, they start to find this, this tradition that they're a part of, very lifeless.[00:09:11]
Jeremy: And then all of a sudden they'll stumble upon an ancient tradition that might be a, a [00:09:16] Catholic mass, um, an orthodox liturgy. Or even sort of [00:09:21] toic rhythms of the Bible, and it'll be like water in a desert. [00:09:26] They are so satiated and so inspired [00:09:31] by these ancient traditions, and they just come alive [00:09:36] and they just, they talk about it like it's the best thing in the world, and they convert to Catholicism or convert to [00:09:41] orthodoxy, or they start to practice all these traditions.
Jeremy: And to them it's [00:09:46] so rich and real. And oftentimes what's kind of interesting to watch is the ship's [00:09:51] passing in the night because if you ever talked to an ex-Catholic who found a new wine [00:09:56] skin and their whole faith erupted talking to somebody who's been in evangelical world for [00:10:01] 10, 20, 30 years is very, uh, mature in their faith, but is [00:10:06] so inspired by these ancient traditions.
Jeremy: They have a hard time even talking to each other. And this is really what [00:10:11] I think Jesus is getting at with the bursting of the wineskins. If you force [00:10:16] new wine into old wineskins or old wine into new wineskins, something [00:10:21] fundamentally bad happens, and that's the reason why we need both. But if [00:10:26] you hear people talk about, man, I just, the, the old is better.
Jeremy: The [00:10:31] old is better. The old is better.
Jeremy: It's
Jeremy: It's really important to be careful. Say on [00:10:36] one hand, yes, Jesus is affirming that no one who's ever had the ability [00:10:41] to distinguish between new wine and old wine would prefer the new wine they're gonna prefer the old [00:10:46] wine, but he says over and over again, there are people who are new wine and [00:10:51] they need these new wine skins.
Jeremy: And that's of course what he's actually emphasizing. Both in [00:10:56] Matthew and the Mark, and I think also in the Luke account, he's trying to give an answer to two John's disciples and explain to [00:11:01] them, this is the reason why I am not joining your traditions. I [00:11:06] affirm that they're good, they're ancient, they're beautiful, and I think that Jesus is even saying [00:11:11] he personally prefers them however he is right now focused on [00:11:16] new wine, and therefore he understands the importance of having [00:11:21] new wine skins.
Jeremy: So what do we do with this? Um, well, I think that we have to be really [00:11:26] careful you guys about, um, having a one size fits all perspective. And this is [00:11:31] again, why I'm a Protestant. I wish so badly and I've told all my friends who are Catholic and Orthodox, [00:11:36] I would love to sit and participate and enjoy the old wine with them.[00:11:41]
Jeremy: One of the problems I have with doing that is because they believe they're the one true church. Once I [00:11:46] convert into their tradition, if new wine starts to emerge in my family or in those [00:11:51] who I disciple, I am forced to push them into an old wine skin. Even [00:11:56] if it's not what is best for their faith, I will feel that pressure because I will have [00:12:01] made the declaration that this is the one true church and everybody should be a part of it.
Jeremy: This is the one [00:12:06] true Eucharist or whatever. So once you make those kinds of statements that only old wine is [00:12:11] legitimate and only old wineskins are from the Lord. And are the one true church. [00:12:16] Then of course you run into this real dilemma that Jesus is trying to resolve here. [00:12:21] Um, however, if you just accept everything Jesus is saying here, and again, we're not getting super deep in [00:12:26] ecclesiology and others, a hundred other verses that come in when people are like, what about this authority?
Jeremy: And you know, I [00:12:31] know there's a million things we could talk about. I just wanna say from a framework perspective. It's really [00:12:36] important to understand that for those of us who do not believe that there is one true church, but there's lots of [00:12:41] different expressions of the church that are legitimate. I read this passage about, [00:12:46] uh, the difference in wineskins and it's extremely instructive and helpful to me, [00:12:51] because I really can understand why as a father or a leader of a [00:12:56] family, I am going to be watching my own children.
Jeremy: Those who I disciple and [00:13:01] understand that there are some folks who are raised in a way where they can [00:13:06] really, truly appreciate the old wine. Even at a young stage in their life or a young stage in their [00:13:11] spiritual maturity, they're able to really savor the old wine, but there are so many people who [00:13:16] can't and to take away from them the experience or those who are [00:13:21] exceptionally gifted at crafting new wineskins.
Jeremy: And to say that, look, all that's illegitimate. And [00:13:26] I would rather, because the older wine is so much better to me, I would rather. [00:13:31] That new wine gets spilled out on the ground, then acknowledge that there's anything but [00:13:36] old wineskins. That is what I hear from people who are like, look, there's only one true [00:13:41] church and I'm sorry that, you know, there are millions of people who have grown up in it and are not [00:13:46] experiencing the gospel in any meaningful way.
Jeremy: And I've seen millions of those [00:13:51] people come into a dynamic relationship with the Lord through new wineskins. But if [00:13:56] I could. Theologically, I would cut off every one of those new wine skins and only [00:14:01] force all that new wine into old wine skins. That is a lose lose. [00:14:06] According to Jesus. You both will hurt the old wine skin.
Jeremy: 'cause if you [00:14:11] force, and this is what we saw over and over again in the Middle Ages in a lot of these different. Difficult times in church [00:14:16] history. People were just being forced into the same wine skin. You know, I've just been [00:14:21] studying the Puritan movement, a lot of things that were happening in England and, and just these new wineskins, they kept trying to [00:14:26] build and people kept getting thrown in prison and burned at the stake.
Jeremy: And it's just like, why attack the [00:14:31] wineskins? Why not let the different wineskins develop so that there's places for new [00:14:36] wine and there is an appreciation for old wine. Without [00:14:41] suggesting that there's only one answer. So thanks for jumping in here. We would love to talk to you guys. Go to one [00:14:46] cage.org if you're interested.
Jeremy: We have a deep dive into our own ecclesiology, our understanding of how the church [00:14:51] works. And all of its diversity and how this impacts households that we're [00:14:56] activating to disciple the city. We have a great course called A House for Community, where [00:15:01] we dive into, okay, what does it mean for us to craft the kinds of communities in and through our [00:15:06] houses, that are full of life, that allow us to practice radical hospitality, uh, for [00:15:11] those who are being discipled and coming to the kingdom, and something that's totally integrated with our children.[00:15:16]
Jeremy: And our family as a whole. So that is a wine skin expression. That we think is [00:15:21] missing in a lot of people's lives and that they are really hungry for. So we'd love to talk to you guys about that if you're interested. [00:15:26] But yeah, lemme know in the comments if there are elements to this that you'd push back on.
Jeremy: Again, this is not [00:15:31] an exhaustive ecclesiology at all. I just think that this is the key [00:15:36] analogy for understanding why it's important to embrace, the fact that there are such different traditions [00:15:41] in the church and that this is why I think that's ultimately a good thing.
