Jeremy Pryor: [00:00:01] what generation are you guys, reaching at this point?
Brian Phipps: I was at five generations on two strands, [00:00:06] four generations on three or four strands, and I've got a picture of it, you know- Nice ...multiple other. [00:00:11] Excellent. But now I'm helping church leaders around the country go to three and four-
Brian Phipps: [00:00:16] generations on multiple strands and beyond.
Jeremy Pryor: [00:00:21] I'm excited to hang out with Brian Phipps. Brian is a fellow [00:00:26] disciple maker in Kansas City. We have lots of mutual friends. We've been on a very similar [00:00:31] journey. We are trying to crack the code for how to make disciples. Like what are the methods that lead to [00:00:36] both transformation and multiplication? Brian heard one of my podcasts recently [00:00:41] where I'm trying to understand how do we get so off mission? Like, why is this so [00:00:46] confusing? And that resonated, and so he told me he's got an organization. It's called [00:00:51] disciplesmade.com.
Jeremy Pryor: I wanna... I'm excited to get into what Brian's doing. But yeah, Brian, thanks for jumping on the podcast with me [00:00:56] today.
Brian Phipps: Yeah. Well, thanks for being so responsive. I-
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah ...
Brian Phipps: listened to a [00:01:01] podcast that a board member sends me access to, and next day I'm on a, on [00:01:06] a call hanging out with you. That's pretty cool.
Brian Phipps: Yes.
Jeremy Pryor: That's all right. that's how I like to do it. I'm just like, let's just dive right [00:01:11] in, um, figure out what God's doing here. So Brian, uh, give me the, the story, like [00:01:16] your backstory. There's... We, we live in a world that's saturated with it's all about the church, it's all [00:01:21] about you know, uh, growing the church. You somehow have [00:01:26] also discovered that discipleship is, is a neglected mission.
Jeremy Pryor: So [00:01:31] walk me through how that happened.
Brian Phipps: Sure. Uh, I mean, I love the church. Uh, [00:01:36] Jesus loves the church, so I love the church. He died for the church. I don't have to do that, but there's been a [00:01:41] whole lot of dying to self-
Jeremy Pryor: Mm ...
Brian Phipps: in it, and the biggest part of that came [00:01:46] about 15 years into my 30-year [00:01:51] ordained ministry stint- Mm
Brian Phipps: uh, where, um, I had just led a [00:01:56] huge, uh, like a small group campaign. You know how you do a purpose-driven life or something like that. We'd [00:02:01] created one I was at Westside Family Church here in Kansas City. Uh, 5,000-ish, [00:02:06] you know, weekend attendance church across the campuses. And we just added, [00:02:11] um, 100 new groups, 1,000 people to groups.
Brian Phipps: Wow. I thought it was a huge [00:02:16] success.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Brian Phipps: And, I'm on my way home from the first one of those meetings and [00:02:21] Jesus sends me the message pretty clearly that, uh, uh, just himself, through his presence [00:02:26] in the car- that, um, he'd brought me here for something else, that my ladder [00:02:31] was against the wrong wall.
Brian Phipps: I was helping people- get connected- but I wasn't ensuring that they [00:02:36] were being transformed. There was no measurement for transformation. There was no [00:02:41] strategy for transformation, and that was the biggest die to self moment because- [00:02:46] I didn't know how to do apparently what he was [00:02:51] asking me to do, 'cause I was pedaling as fast and hard and as hard as I knew how.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay. [00:02:56] Wow. Okay. So I'd love to go one layer deeper [00:03:01] because having a really successful small group strategy launch [00:03:06] that penetrates, that's very difficult to do. Um, and for so [00:03:11] many pastors, when that happens, they're like, "Check, we are making [00:03:16] disciples." Like, that's the definition. that
Brian Phipps: was me. I had
Jeremy Pryor: to- Sure. Me too. I was... I, [00:03:21] I did a stint as a discipleship pastor, and that meant get the small groups going, get the small groups- Yeah ... [00:03:26] multiplying. Um, help me understand the difference between small group [00:03:31] ministry and disciple making. How do you kind of, uh, divide that line? Why do you [00:03:36] think the Lord was really pinpointing this difference for you?
Brian Phipps: Yeah. I... Let me just start [00:03:41] by saying I thought they were the same. Okay. I was convinced they were the same. I had inherited a [00:03:46] model that said participation equals transformation, or the best we can get at it. [00:03:51]
Jeremy Pryor: Okay.
Brian Phipps: And it was at that time Jesus said, "You need to dig further," because [00:03:56] if you're not getting the right job done, then you're not doing it the right way.
Brian Phipps: And if you're not [00:04:01] doing it the right way, you need to do a different way. You can't just put little tweaks on that [00:04:06] or a new label on it or better branding or something like that. It has to be fundamentally different. [00:04:11] You know that saying if you keep doing things the same way and expecting Mm-hmm ...a different result, that's- Yes
Brian Phipps: [00:04:16] that's insanity.
Brian Phipps: That was the big shift is that He had just made it clear that [00:04:21] I wasn't getting the results that He was looking for. Mm. People weren't fundamentally [00:04:26] different. The big thing that bugged me was that such a small percentage [00:04:31] of people owned, uh, a sense of participation in the [00:04:36] Great Commission.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Brian Phipps: That's the first thing that got me. It's like-
Jeremy Pryor: Okay ...
Brian Phipps: why [00:04:41] do so few people care as much as I do about the Great Commission? What's special about me? [00:04:46] What's different about me? What happened to me in my formation? And it... I just [00:04:51] started digging back into all that. That was really the first thing, was just this obvious gap [00:04:56] between kind of my commitment to faith and most everybody else that came to the churches I led.
Jeremy Pryor: [00:05:01] Hmm. Yeah. One of the things that I think is really counterintuitive for [00:05:06] o- often people in today's modern Western church culture [00:05:11] is th- really being kind of a little bit harder on the definition of discipleship when [00:05:16] Jesus in the Great Commission said, "Go and make disciples." The...
Jeremy Pryor: I have a simple criteria that I [00:05:21] try to pass every definition of discipleship through, and [00:05:26] that is would the disciples who heard Jesus say the Great Commission, would they have [00:05:31] recognized that as the definition? So for example, when we say small groups are [00:05:36] discipleship, would the disciples go, "Of course, that's what He's talking about," you know? Like, [00:05:41] that, that's what, that's- like, th- was that what they just went through over the last three years? There seems to be a difference, and I think, I [00:05:46] think that, and I'd love for you to tease out a little bit more of the difference.
Jeremy Pryor: 'Cause I think one of the things that's really [00:05:51] difficult for people to understand is small group ministry originally was [00:05:56] not a response- to a passion for the great commission, like you just said. For sure. [00:06:01] Small group ministry, for the vast majority of churches, came out of [00:06:06] a specific point of pain, and that is that when you have a worship service, [00:06:11] uh, you have about six months before [00:06:16] people will leave your worship service if they don't make- That's true ...a meaningful relational connection with somebody. Yeah. And [00:06:21] so pastors discovered this stat, and the churches [00:06:26] that figured out how to solve that problem, they closed what they called the back door, [00:06:31] right? They were really concerned about people leaving out the back door. So what's the best way to get [00:06:36] people engaged in relationship?
Jeremy Pryor: Well, it's to create, you know, small [00:06:41] groups, oftentimes based on life stage, so that you meet people that are in your neighborhood or that are [00:06:46] in your, in your current life stage. You can go through a Bible study. Doesn't mean you're not growing, doesn't mean you're not learning, [00:06:51] but it's important to understand that the goal of that ministry is often to [00:06:56] sort of help contain the, uh, the, the congregants in, and [00:07:01] cause them to root in a particular, uh, church expression.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. [00:07:06] And it wasn't explicitly designed for disciple-making. So yeah, help me understand, how, how do [00:07:11] you see the distinction?
Brian Phipps: Yeah, I mean, every bit of that is, is true. I mean, even, like, the [00:07:16] primary consultants back in the day... And this also, just to be, you know, even more, [00:07:21] you know, painting the picture, this was also a response to when, uh, Sunday mornings went to [00:07:26] more gather- you know, trying to reach seekers.
Brian Phipps: Yes. The seeker movement. is like, okay, we need to add a discipleship [00:07:31] component, and that happens in smaller environments. The care component goes to small groups. So there [00:07:36] was a lot of pain points that this was intended to address, but none of them [00:07:41] necessarily discipleship. Unless, of course, your definition allows for, [00:07:46] um, uh, s- the assumption.
Brian Phipps: It's a false assumption, but if it allows for the assumption of participation [00:07:51] equals maturity or transformation. Mm. And so, I mean, what's the difference? [00:07:56] Um, we, we talk about intentional disciple-making environments, and so the [00:08:01] elements of intentionality that are present in a disciple-making experience that are [00:08:06] not necessarily in small groups are a measurement of what formation actually looks like, [00:08:11] and a focus and accountability and spiritual habits [00:08:16] that actually render all of those, you know, uh, those outcomes.
Brian Phipps: So the... You need [00:08:21] to have a clear definition- as to what it means to be a disciple. You need to have spiritual habits [00:08:26] that render- Yes ... those outcomes, and you need to have the kind of accountability and support [00:08:31] that makes you, uh, successful in community to do such things.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Brian Phipps: That's, that's [00:08:36] just a beginning to that answer.
Jeremy Pryor: Yes. Yeah, it's interesting you're using the word, uh, habits. I'm, [00:08:41] I'm just finishing reading, there's a book called, uh, The Patient Ferment of the Early Church, [00:08:46] and the author is going through the first 200 years of church history and their [00:08:51] disciple-making process, and he really highlights [00:08:56] the construction of alternative habits, um, that [00:09:01] the new believers were being trained in that were extremely counter to their [00:09:06] flesh, to what was normal in the kind of, uh, Roman pagan culture, [00:09:11] and that this is what actually led to the evangelism explosion [00:09:16] that happened, um, in the second and third centuries.
Jeremy Pryor: People just had a different quality of [00:09:21] life because the discipleship- Yeah ... was so robust. It was so- targeted at, [00:09:26] at these habits that, uh, were so strikingly different and [00:09:31] attractive to people in their culture. Yeah ... And we seem to have a d- little different strategy [00:09:36] when it comes to evangelism. Uh, i- is, is it, it doesn't seem to primarily be [00:09:41] because of the incredible transformation of the [00:09:46] disciples.
Jeremy Pryor: It seems to really hinge on something else. And so yeah, that, that, that's a really interesting word [00:09:51] At the
Brian Phipps: relevance of the content and the group or the-
Jeremy Pryor: Yes ...
Brian Phipps: weekend message or whatever. Yeah. It's all [00:09:56] content-dependent, which is very central- centralized. Yes. Yeah.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay. Yeah. So [00:10:01] you had this small group ministry. It was taking off. You get this sort [00:10:06] of insight from the Holy Spirit. What about the Great Commission, Brian? Like, let's do that. Tell me what happened [00:10:11] next.
Brian Phipps: Well, I didn't know how to do whatever He was asking me to do, and so He said, "Shelve what you think you know.[00:10:16]
Brian Phipps: Don't throw it away. It's gonna come in handy. But, uh, I need you to forget that you know [00:10:21] anything really so that you can have a simplistic mind to come and just do what I ask you to do." [00:10:26]
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm. "
Brian Phipps: And, uh, so listen, just wait, and when you hear what I [00:10:31] invite you to do, do it without any hesitation, and, and then write down what [00:10:36] works and share it with others," which is really a simple discovery Bible study- Yeah
Brian Phipps: [00:10:41] process, except this is about kind of systems. And so the first thing He asked me to do [00:10:46] was break up the group that I, w- that I was leading two groups at the time, a men's group and a, and a couples [00:10:51] group, uh, one at home with my wife. He's like, "I need you to let those folks know that come, [00:10:56] you know, the end of December, um, that those groups you will not be leading anymore.
Brian Phipps: [00:11:01] By the, between September, this is September, and December you'll, uh, [00:11:06] you'll invite people to lead, invite those leaders to have apprentices or co-leaders- Hmm ... [00:11:11] and you'll disciple those leaders and co-leaders starting in January for 12 [00:11:16] months. And, um, and that will be their kind of on-the-job [00:11:21] training, their support and whatnot.
Brian Phipps: So if you step up and lead or co-lead, you'll be discipled by B, but I'll no [00:11:26] longer disciple people directly, only disciple makers." And that- was a [00:11:31] categorical shift for me, and one that I was, [00:11:36] I punished myself for, and I was punished for by people that did not understand. Like, [00:11:41] "You're not even a real pastor anymore."
Brian Phipps: Like it was all kind- Mm ... it was a, it was a tough- We [00:11:46] pay you to do the work, Brian ... it was a tough season to transition. But that-
Jeremy Pryor: We pay you to do, do the work, Brian. We don't, we don't want you to [00:11:51] train us to do the work. Like, uh- Yeah ... that's not the deal.
Brian Phipps: And that was my [00:11:56] intro into becoming counter-cultural.
Brian Phipps: Um, and I [00:12:01] thought I was being more pure to culture, and anticipated more of [00:12:06] a positive response. Now, there was a lot of people that gave a positive response, and if we [00:12:11] continue down the story to the 750 plus people who gave significant [00:12:16] sacrifice and transformation, you know, um, we'll see that it ended up [00:12:21] validating itself, and Jesus validating.
Brian Phipps: But, um, woo, that's a big, big shift. [00:12:26] That four months was tough.
Jeremy Pryor: Wow. Yeah, let's, let's maybe linger on that for a second. [00:12:31] So it sounds like, so part of what you decided is, "I'm [00:12:36] no longer gonna continue to make seedless grapes. Like, we're going- ... it [00:12:41] has to multiply. The seed's gotta be in the fruit. That's
Brian Phipps: awesome.
Jeremy Pryor: And I'm, I'm gonna look and [00:12:46] examine before I get involved whether or not there's a seed in this fruit, and if there's [00:12:51] not, I'm num- I'm out. Like, That's not participating in the Great Commission. You've gotta be a [00:12:56] disciple maker. So you, you, you said that, that was incredibly costly move, and an incredibly- [00:13:01] um, I think unusual move. And I, I have found that, that, that is, that is very true. [00:13:06] Yeah, let's talk a little- Yeah ... little bit more about that, 'cause I, I think that part of what you even articulate, and I [00:13:11] was, you know, kind of poking fun at, th- there is a... I think one of the reasons that we have to be [00:13:16] honest about in, in our context is that we are so wealthy as a [00:13:21] church that we can pay for ministry professionally instead of getting involved in [00:13:26] ministry.
Jeremy Pryor: And, and so it, it's, it's really important to imagine, what if all of those [00:13:31] resources went into multiplication movements? The, the, the speed and the [00:13:36] power of the, the movement, what would happen would be so [00:13:41] immense. And, uh, and so part of what I'm constantly trying to figure out is how to [00:13:46] help people pull back from ministry models that are [00:13:51] by design, um, addition models or [00:13:56] professional to consumer models.
Jeremy Pryor: Like, we need to stop this. Like, [00:14:01] Jesus came to found a disciple-making movement, and that, that means that the design of [00:14:06] the actual ministry itself must be multiplication. And y- that's very easy to [00:14:11] figure out. It takes me about 30 seconds of investigating a ministry model to [00:14:16] discover whether or not it's a multiplication movement, whether or not there's a seed in the fruit, or if it's a [00:14:21] seedless grape.
Jeremy Pryor: And- Yeah ... and so we just need to do that work, or we just need to make a, an agreement to do [00:14:26] that. So yeah, talk me through those four months a little bit more. Uh, like, how did that conviction [00:14:31] play out for you?
Brian Phipps: Well, I mean, I had a job to do, which was the job I [00:14:36] was paid to do. Yeah. And that was to continue to build small groups and develop leaders and [00:14:41] things like that.
Brian Phipps: So I continued to do that, and I continued to do this little obedience [00:14:46] test, experiment. Um, and so it's- it was essentially additional [00:14:51] work for me, 'cause it was outside the scope of my job description. Now, take some time to think about [00:14:56] that one-
Jeremy Pryor: Right ...
Brian Phipps: for a minute, you know? And it goes back to your podcast.
Brian Phipps: It's [00:15:01] like, why is that the case? And I've got
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah ...
Brian Phipps: stories of people that we've coached, you know, churches that we've [00:15:06] coached, where, you know, people get punitive stuff [00:15:11] from their supervisors because they're spending too much time making disciples. Like, it's, the atrocity [00:15:16] is really significant. Which just demonstrates that there's such an entrenched cultural [00:15:21] paradigm that is seen as the Jesus way, that until you take [00:15:26] a metaphorical red pill, to quote, you know, in The Matrix, you just can't [00:15:31] see it. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I hadn't seen it yet, to [00:15:36] be honest, Jeremy. I mean, I, all I saw was the, [00:15:41] was the vacancy, the cavity, the facade of what I was [00:15:46] doing, uh, and the decay underneath it.
Brian Phipps: Like, the fruit wasn't [00:15:51] there that should be there. And I saw that all along, but [00:15:56] I couldn't... I didn't know what to do about it. I was, I was in the entrenched camp. [00:16:01] And so the big thing that happened was I, you know, was, were, these were [00:16:06] by definition seeded grapes. The way God made them, by the way. [00:16:11] you have to work to make a fruit not you know, s- make it seedless.
Brian Phipps: But [00:16:16] essentially the way God asked me to do it, not the way I decided to do it, um, but I decided to obey, [00:16:21] uh, He, um, He said, "Only disciple those that'll [00:16:26] step up and lead." Yes. Now, that's in stark contrast to the people who I s- you [00:16:31] know, would invite, "Come, and I'll disciple you for a year, and then you lead."
Brian Phipps: Right. Because I've seen what happens at the end [00:16:36] of that. You do another year- Yes ... then another year, and then it fades out, so. Thank you very much
Jeremy Pryor: for that year. I appreciate it. I'll move on to the next [00:16:41] Bible study. Thank you.
Brian Phipps: Yes. And, and that is by far the [00:16:46] default percentage of- Yeah ...of what happens with that.
Brian Phipps: So I knew better than that. Yeah. And so I [00:16:51] went ahead and said, "Step up and lead." What blew my mind was how eager [00:16:56] people were- Mm ...for this type of investment into their lives- Mm ...to be truly discipled. [00:17:01] None of them knew what the plan was. I didn't know what the plan was yet. Mm. I just knew it involved 12 months [00:17:06] of w- weekly times together, that were gonna focus on spiritual disciplines that- [00:17:11] Both helped them develop the fruit of the spirit and some sense of on-the-job training to [00:17:16] develop their calling as a small group leader.
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm.
Brian Phipps: Um, what happened was [00:17:21] everybody stepped up for this. I mean, we met at 5:00 in the morning. Hmm. We read [00:17:26] through the whole Bible in a year. We got vulnerable in triads with I believe and I will [00:17:31] statements. Actually used SOAP, uh, the SOAP journaling process back then before [00:17:36] some of the other disciple-made language was curated.
Brian Phipps: Um, I mean, these [00:17:41] guys did it, and their lives just unbelievable. Like, they owned the Great Commission. I [00:17:46] got the one secret ingredient I was looking for, uh, and it was all because of the definition [00:17:51] of disciple-making we put forward and all these habits and focused intentionality. [00:17:56] And, uh, it was so significant, I had to just put them up in front of the leadership team [00:18:01] at the church, and that happened one, one summer evening- at one of our Lead [00:18:06] 360 events. I just put 11 guys up on the platform and invited them to share their story. Next [00:18:11] thing you know, we had 40 people signed up for the next one that wasn't even [00:18:16] scheduled yet.
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm.
Brian Phipps: There was a hunger that was tapped for spiritual [00:18:21] formation. And then, and the further that went, the better we were, we, we [00:18:26] became at just making sure that these were transferable, you know, a [00:18:31] multi-generation, uh, suited experiences so that the [00:18:36] DNA wouldn't get lost between second and third and third and fourth generations.
Brian Phipps: We didn't [00:18:41] exactly succeed at first, uh, but we, over the course of 15 years, of course, that [00:18:46] stuff's been pretty, pretty tightened up.
Jeremy Pryor: Excellent. And, uh, what, what [00:18:51] generation are you guys, uh, reaching at this point? Do, have you, has you tracked that?
Brian Phipps: [00:18:56] Well, I'm no longer in that church. I left that church back in 2018 to do this full [00:19:01] time.
Brian Phipps: I was at five generations on two strands, four generations on three or four [00:19:06] strands, and I've got a picture of it, you know- Nice ...multiple other. Excellent. But now I'm helping [00:19:11] church leaders around the country go to three and four-
Jeremy Pryor: Okay ...
Brian Phipps: uh, generations on multiple [00:19:16] strands and beyond.
Jeremy Pryor: This is the key, and this is one of these I think I mentioned in that podcast, was [00:19:21] it's very easy to discover whether or not this is the goal.
Jeremy Pryor: [00:19:26] Um, you just have to track it. You have to track the generations. And- Yeah ... um, and what, what I've been [00:19:31] obsessively looking for are movements that are designed to get to the fourth [00:19:36] generation. Once you have a movement like that, what happens is there's something inside the [00:19:41] blueprint you're using itself that has demonstrated its ability to put a seed in the [00:19:46] fruit.
Jeremy Pryor: Until you get- to the fourth generation, you really don't know. You don't know if there's a systemic [00:19:51] problem in the blueprint itself. And so it's really important to be very hard and hammer on that [00:19:56] blueprint because what's likely happening is you're still inadvertently [00:20:01] elevating consumption over multiplication.
Jeremy Pryor: Um, Yeah ... and the only way to know if you're not doing that [00:20:06] is to have these disciple-making lines. Like, to actually, like, map it out the way you [00:20:11] guys have done, and then what, what you're advocating for these churches to do. So, [00:20:16] um, talk to me a little bit about that process. What was it that you have discovered [00:20:21] helps b- make- you know, 15 years of this, of really, and of tracking it and, and [00:20:26] seeing what happened between the beginning of this in 2018 when you saw, you know, this [00:20:31] movement penetrate to the fifth generation. What were some of the key insights that you guys discovered [00:20:36] that helped get to that place?
Brian Phipps: Yeah. Well, it starts with, uh, a commitment to [00:20:41] exclusive invitations- Sure ... not general invitations. Like, Jesus didn't [00:20:46] go to the Sermon on the Mount and say, "Hey, by the way, once this is over, we're gonna have a line [00:20:51] down front, and if anybody's interested in more of a, you know, you know, deep dive."[00:20:56]
Brian Phipps: You know, it was, uh... He prayed overnight at least. I bet he prayed a lot longer than that, [00:21:01] and then he exclusively invited people into a very focused mission, and it was [00:21:06] an engaged mission. "I will make you fishers of men." Like, there was a definition [00:21:11] on the front end of this invitation. And so exclusive [00:21:16] invitation, I would say it's a very high bar associated with training, [00:21:21] um, and equipping that would render them into becoming people worth following.
Brian Phipps: That's a kind of a [00:21:26] character. Fruit of the spirit is how we define uh, Christ-like character. Well, [00:21:31] Bible does too, so we- Yeah ... try to follow that as much as I can. Um, but it also is a high bar of [00:21:36] engagement, and if you're not engaging from the front end... Like, you have to be serving [00:21:41] somewhere to get into our, our initial six-month deal.
Brian Phipps: You have to be leading [00:21:46] something to get into our nine-month leaders made thing. Okay. Because you can't-
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah ... [00:21:51]
Brian Phipps: you can't equip to that what you're not doing. Like, you have to be thrown into the fire to do it. And [00:21:56] so exclusive invitation, high bar, mission-focused. [00:22:01] Um, those were the, the critical elements.
Brian Phipps: Okay. And then just real clarity on [00:22:06] what is it we're trying to accomplish.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Brian Phipps: Uh, we called it an information huddle. You don't sign up for the [00:22:11] group, you sign up to, for an information huddle. You actually have to read a prerequisite re- [00:22:16] I know I'm listing off a lot of things really quickly, and this might sound like this guy is just obtuse.
Brian Phipps: No, just trying to [00:22:21] be efficient with- Yeah, helpful. Yeah ... communicating these things, but we have found that this really works. [00:22:26] If you... Like, for followers made is our six-month thing. You wanna be [00:22:31] considered for this, go and read a book called Not a Fan, uh, by Kyle Idleman. It's a great book helping [00:22:36] people move from fan to follower by highlighting the way Jesus invited, which is [00:22:41] a take up your cross and follow me type of invitation.
Brian Phipps: Not, "Hey, I'll, [00:22:46] I'll put, you know, I'll put cream in your coffee and watch your [00:22:51] kid while you get discipled." It's a- There's an element of sacrifice- involved in all of that ... Well, [00:22:56]
Jeremy Pryor: you're, you're hinting, yeah, you're hinting there about, uh, what I, I'd like to drill into, and that is a, a, a [00:23:01] natural tension between exclusive invitation and- um, [00:23:06] the inclusive worship service. And I think this is the collision that a lot of churches cannot [00:23:11] figure out. Like, um, and w- wow, I was blown away. So for people to [00:23:16] understand the way that the early church did this, uh, [00:23:21] was when you met somebody and started to build a relationship with them and they became curious [00:23:26] about the faith, part of what you would then do is, uh, invite [00:23:31] them into, if they, if they want to give their life to Christ, that, that, y- [00:23:36] you're, you, are in a one to three year disciple making, uh, relationship- with a sponsor who was... [00:23:41] And, and there was a m- multiple scrutinies. And so it went from, like relationship [00:23:46] first to discipleship, and joining the church was at the very tail end of that one to [00:23:51] three year process. After it was demonstrated that you were, your habits had been [00:23:56] transformed, that you truly did believe, that's, you would be baptized and, and invited to the
Brian Phipps: church.
Brian Phipps: and then you're [00:24:01] baptized.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, yeah. You're baptized at the back end, which I, w- I was shocked, obviously that wasn't what happened in, in the beginning of Acts. But, [00:24:06] um, but- Right ... what they, one of the things that they discovered was that in, especially because of the persecution, it was, it [00:24:11] was just very difficult to...
Jeremy Pryor: But, but one of the things that, that happened because they reversed the [00:24:16] order, was they really eliminated the sort of consumer problem that we have today. And so [00:24:21] our strategy is the opposite. You're fully a part of the church, you get all the benefits of being a part of the church [00:24:26] from day one. Um, you know, here's, yeah, here's cream in your coffee.
Jeremy Pryor: We'll take your kids. And so [00:24:31] you- Right ...you just constantly are winning people through consumption or [00:24:36] through figuring out ways to sort of delight them and surprise- them- Mm. Yeah ... by doing [00:24:41] things for them. Um, and what you win people with, you win people to. And so it's a little [00:24:46] bit of a bait and switch to all of a sudden, you know, come around later and say, "Hey, there's this very, [00:24:51] really high bar thing called discipleship.
Jeremy Pryor: You know, sorry to have to hit you over the head with this [00:24:56] thing. I know it seems completely different than everything you've experienced up till now in the church." [00:25:01] Um, like, how have you worked through this? Because I, I completely a- agree, but, but people [00:25:06] really, really bristle at the exclusive, [00:25:11] uh, invitation- Yeah
Jeremy Pryor: um, because of the way our churches are structured. How, how, have you thought through, or how, as you've [00:25:16] worked with pastors who, who have wrestled through this, what, how do you, how do you think about that piece? [00:25:21]
Brian Phipps: Well, I mean, leadership is the art of [00:25:26] picking which problems you wanna deal with, right? And so none of these is a [00:25:31] problem-free- Right
Brian Phipps: solution. Um, I picked up, uh, I've got [00:25:36] a little, uh, book that we're writing, Breaking the Addition Addiction, which is about how to try to change the [00:25:41] culture from purely consumeristic addition to [00:25:46] a, a church that actually leverages- [00:25:51] These kind of, or easy access inclusive experiences like weekend [00:25:56] worship to funnel into discipleship tracks that render [00:26:01] missionaries where they live, work, learn, and play without blowing the church up.
Brian Phipps: Uh, and one of the... And so, like the [00:26:06] systemic issue that we talk about here is no church can serve two masters. [00:26:11] Addition must serve multiplication, or multiplication will starve-
Jeremy Pryor: That's
Brian Phipps: right ... under [00:26:16] addition.
Jeremy Pryor: Yes.
Brian Phipps: Uh, say it again. No church can serve two mas- of course we're riffing off [00:26:21] Jesus', uh, thing on money and God here, but no church can serve two masters.
Brian Phipps: Addition must serve [00:26:26] multiplication, or multiplication will starve under addition. There's people that would say you need to [00:26:31] choose. Um, I would say that that will be your most, [00:26:36] if fast, you know, way to, to choose whatever [00:26:41] problems you want, but you're probably gonna deal with a lot of your current constituency signing [00:26:46] out because like, as you said, you know, what they signed on for, they got- you have to do that to keep them.
Jeremy Pryor: That's [00:26:51] right.
Brian Phipps: And so I talk about, um, what we did at Westside that was really, [00:26:56] uh, formalized well, I think, by Wil Mancini, is the funnel fusion [00:27:01] idea. Um, we had a version of that that was going. I basically, uh, [00:27:06] saw people, uh, in worship in three t- or in our engagement and our [00:27:11] assimilation process in three tiers.
Brian Phipps: They're either coming to worship, or they've taken another step and joined in a [00:27:16] group, or they've taken another step and they've, uh, started to volunteer. And the further [00:27:21] people would go into that assimilation track, a lot of people church, a lot of churches, by the way, and you know [00:27:26] this, call that discipleship.
Brian Phipps: Yeah. It's not.
Jeremy Pryor: Right. No.
Brian Phipps: It's assimilation. It's not bad. Right. I don't put [00:27:31] a, a zero sticker on there. I put a it's gotta serve a greater [00:27:36] purpose- and I'm all in. The further they move down that demonstrated [00:27:41] initiative track, the more I wanted, as a disciple maker, to [00:27:46] invest in those people in upper level disciple making, uh, investment [00:27:51] in order to help them optimize character and calling, help them become [00:27:56] fully alive in Christ, John 10:10.
Brian Phipps: And I found that that did a couple of [00:28:01] things. One, it created a huge demand in our areas of volunteer [00:28:06] service- Hmm ... because people recognize if I volunteer there, I have a chance of getting discipled. [00:28:11]
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm. Oh, that's
Brian Phipps: good. Even if I don't really care for that at all.
Jeremy Pryor: You tie those together, [00:28:16] uh, and, and so, and so if people are, like all the hungry people that are really [00:28:21] looking for transformation, they get involved in service and then, and then the discipleship, [00:28:26] uh- is a, Yeah ...is a part of that pack- package.
Brian Phipps: There be- It was interesting. [00:28:31] A demand for these experiences grew beyond our capacity to provide leaders to [00:28:36] provide it.
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm.
Brian Phipps: And, uh, which was, it's unusual. And probably hearing that you're like, "Whatever, [00:28:41] dude. You're fantasizing about what was yesterday." It's true. We had a list.
Brian Phipps: We and it [00:28:46] was, it was evidenced when the other executive pastors- came to me and said, "You can't keep this [00:28:51] underground anymore. You at least have to put something on the website so we have, so we can stop [00:28:56] answering all your questions." And we basically put on there, um, read this book, [00:29:01] Not a Fan, Followers Made Again is the, kind of the entry point.
Brian Phipps: read this book, Not a Fan, start [00:29:06] volunteering somewhere, and let us know when you're done and where you're [00:29:11] serving, and we'll put you on a list of people that our new leaders, uh, can pray over and, and [00:29:16] consider inviting. And we had a nice list of people. And, um, [00:29:21] so the demand, I think, is there inherently in people.
Brian Phipps: They're just waiting for a plan for this [00:29:26] to happen.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. How do you deal with the pushback of just, [00:29:31] uh, sheer capacity? So, um, when I think about the model you just described, [00:29:36] it sounds like, um, and you can correct any of these assumptions, they're going to a worship [00:29:41] service probably on a weekly basis.
Jeremy Pryor: They're a part of a small group. You know, they're potentially leading a small group. [00:29:46] They're serving in a ministry, and they are participating in a disciple-making process. So that, [00:29:51] that would be four, um, weekly rhythms. Talk me through, [00:29:56] do you feel like, look, just, that's just the bar?
Jeremy Pryor: Like, get over it. Like, let's, let's, let's do the stuff that Jesus [00:30:01] called us to do. Um, how, how do you, how do you, how do you respond to kind of, you [00:30:06] know, so many church leaders are like, "Hey, my average person in this church [00:30:11] is, you know, basically attending two or three times a, a month." And now we're talking Yeah about [00:30:16] potentially four rhythms a week.
Brian Phipps: Yeah. I mean, obviously there's a couple of boundaries there [00:30:21] that need to be, uh, that we need to help people keep as leaders. So like, don't burn [00:30:26] yourself out. Don't burn your family out. There's, there's a number of things that we need to be really, really sensitive to. [00:30:31] But then, like, what's the right number of things?
Brian Phipps: I think it's a mistake for us as the [00:30:36] leaders to, uh, accept the burden for them making that decision. Mm. You know, I [00:30:41] shouldn't tell you you can do this, this, or this, but you can't do this, 'cause everybody's circumstance is different. I [00:30:46] need to guide them into a process where they're making solid [00:30:51] God-led, you know, Spirit-affirmed decisions regarding that.
Brian Phipps: Um, [00:30:56] but then it comes back down to what is the most helpful thing for them [00:31:01] at this moment? If they can only afford two things, what are the things that are gonna [00:31:06] help them live most fully alive, serve their families, and be an agent of transformation [00:31:11] where they live, work, learn, and play? Yeah. And to force that...
Brian Phipps: And if a leader says, "I don't [00:31:16] wanna bring these high-level exclusive type of discipleship things," whether they're [00:31:21] ours or Replicate's or any- doesn't matter whose. Um, you know, because I don't [00:31:26] want my people to have that many choices and ruin their lives and not do other things. You [00:31:31] gotta ask yourself, "What business am I in?"
Brian Phipps: You know, at some point, if it's, if it's [00:31:36] getting the job done, great. If it's not getting the job done and you're not willing to answer those [00:31:41] questions- Then that should be an invitation to consider, um, what [00:31:46] business you're in. And that's hard. Those are hard things to say. Um, but [00:31:51] the follow-up to that is let's assume, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna make these available, [00:31:56] and we want people to make good decisions about what they prioritize.
Brian Phipps: Here's the [00:32:01] God-honest truth. People value what they value. Hmm. If they [00:32:06] value kids' sports over Sunday morning, they're gonna do the kids' sports. There's nothing I can do about it. [00:32:11] I can't guilt them into a different way. I can't. But I can invite them to experience [00:32:16] something that's extremely valuable to me, or I can share the story of how [00:32:21] this thing has been extremely valuable to others.
Brian Phipps: More importantly, they can share how valuable [00:32:26] it's been, and then they can decide whether or not they wanna invest that time. And if [00:32:31] God's got it, and God's in control of all that, and I'm making myself available [00:32:36] to provide that type of experience as a part of my role as a follower of Jesus, then the [00:32:41] chips will just fall where they need to.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. Yeah, I think the capacity question is, [00:32:46] is really difficult. I like what you said about, look, people have to make those decisions. I think one [00:32:51] of the things we can do as leaders is we can create an expectation of what the [00:32:56] rankings should be. Like, part of what I ... I'm like, when you put discipleship as number four, and number five, [00:33:01] and basically say if you've, you've g- uh, once you've gotten to three, four, five rhythms in, then, [00:33:06] then that's only when you should prioritize discipleship, that does seem backwards to me.
Jeremy Pryor: Like, it's gotta be [00:33:11] much higher on the priority list. And, uh, you know, I've, I've, I'm now running into pastors who are [00:33:16] saying it's number one or number two. That's a very new, uh, idea that I'm running [00:33:21] into. Um, and I'm ... It's so encouraging to me when I hear a pastor say that. 'Cause it, I have, I have [00:33:26] tons of hope that, that, a, a mo- 'cause you can't have a movement when 5% of the [00:33:31] church has the capacity to participate in it.
Jeremy Pryor: Like, 95% of Yeah ... like, if you understand how movements [00:33:36] work, movements have to penetrate the majority of anything for it to continue to [00:33:41] multiply. So if you create- a model that, that assumes that 95% of people are [00:33:46] gonna opt out, it's not gonna be a movement. It's gonna be a side ministry at the [00:33:51] very best.
Jeremy Pryor: And we d- again, we designed it that way. Like, we can see and predict that's [00:33:56] the, that's the extent of, of the impact this is gonna have, so we have to- deal with this problem. [00:34:01] Um, so I, I would love to get one layer deeper, Brian, in, in the transformation side of the equation. I, we talked about [00:34:06] mul- I, a- I always like to see disciple-making blueprints properly balance transformation and [00:34:11] multiplication.
Jeremy Pryor: Um, and so you guys have, have really leaned into solving the multiplication [00:34:16] problem. When somebody is participating in discipleship- Um, what are some things that you've learned [00:34:21] really help change the- their heart, their life? And, you know, you- you've used the [00:34:26] word kind of apprenticeship, which I- I- I really, I think it's gotta be an apprenticeship at some level.
Jeremy Pryor: But we live [00:34:31] in a day and age where p- that's not how people are educated. People go to college. They sit in lecture halls. You [00:34:36] know, they, they watch videos, they read books. Um, this can be really hard on any model that [00:34:41] is any kind of life t- like life-on-life transfer of DNA. So Mm-hmm ...what have you [00:34:46] discovered works for that?
Brian Phipps: [00:34:51] Um, I'm gonna give you some jargon here, and then I'll- interpret it a little bit. But we call it, um, [00:34:56] limited duration experiences, not perpetual, [00:35:01] forever small groups or whatnot. Um, we're gonna s- just like this is [00:35:06] where the, the, the education system actually helps us. You're only in first grade for so long, [00:35:11] and you either pass the test or you're not, and then you move to second grade and so forth.
Brian Phipps: So limited duration with a [00:35:16] particular set of expectations of what outcomes are. And that would be the second thing. It's outcome [00:35:21] focused.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay.
Brian Phipps: And we're, we talk about measurable transformation. [00:35:26] We actually have what we call the My Impact Equation. Hmm. And it's a very simple [00:35:31] self-giving test. Uh, it's not like scientifically [00:35:36] validated and all that other stuff, but it's practically validated [00:35:41] because I can have biblical definitions of the fruit of the spirit, and I can act like my [00:35:46] spouse is watching me as I do this, and I can take it every six months, and I [00:35:51] can see where my lowest scores are, and I can attend to those with the spirit's leadership, and I [00:35:56] can reassess and measure growth, and I can ask for people's help in [00:36:01] developing the things that are, uh, broken.
Brian Phipps: So the My Impact Equation does have the nine [00:36:06] fruit of the spirit on the character side of formation.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay. So
Brian Phipps: you're rating yourself one to 10 [00:36:11] on those nine fruit, and then those are averaged out, like, uh, and then, [00:36:16] you know, that's your character score. Then we have eight elements of personal calling [00:36:21] that have everything to do with my Ephesians 2:10 masterpiece mission- [00:36:26] Hmm and which is we call our, you know, our special calling or [00:36:31] personal calling. Um, and then there's the ... I, I [00:36:36] participate in intentional relationship evangelism practices. We like to use the bless [00:36:41] rhythms. Um, and I'm seeing people that are far from God move from [00:36:46] spiritual indifference to curiosity and [00:36:51] curiosity to pursuit and pursuit to surrender to Christ.
Brian Phipps: Like, I can actually rate [00:36:56] those on a scale of one to 10 as well. And on average, what's interesting is that [00:37:01] most people, when they start with us, they have a five or less out of 10 on character. [00:37:06] It's their average fruit of the spirit scores. And it's a less than two [00:37:11] on calling. Wow. And so five times two is [00:37:16] 10 out of 100 potential impact score.
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm.
Brian Phipps: And so once that, [00:37:21] once that dashboard gets just emblazoned into your mind, you see [00:37:26] the potential for growth. Oh, I can start to learn more about my gifts, and I can start to [00:37:31] discover what's the passion area that God wants me to use those gifts in, and how do I start developing the [00:37:36] bless rhythms? And you just rudimentally, you know, this change doesn't happen overnight, [00:37:41] but some change can.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Brian Phipps: Right? you know, it's all about intentionality and [00:37:46] focus on those particular outcomes of character and calling. You can't really determine whether or not [00:37:51] you're being formed until you know what the definition of that formation- Yeah ... looks [00:37:56] like.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay.
Brian Phipps: And so limited duration, outcome focused, habit [00:38:01] fueled.
Brian Phipps: What are the spiritual disciplines? What are the habits? Um, we have [00:38:06] a, a rudimentary list of things that are in each of our [00:38:11] experiences that we make available, and that list builds over time, [00:38:16] that through the course of three or four years, now you've got a good solid set [00:38:21] of, um, spiritual disciplines that are embedded into your rhythms.
Brian Phipps: Yeah. They're not just [00:38:26] practices. They're not just habits. They're actually rhythms-
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm ...
Brian Phipps: that shape how you live. So I [00:38:31] would say those are the, those are the key elements. It's all mission fixated. I mean, [00:38:36] we got more language, but-
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah ...
Brian Phipps: I've said a lot, so-
Jeremy Pryor: That's great ... So yeah. That's what I'm looking for, yeah.
Jeremy Pryor: Tr- [00:38:41] 'cause I do think for a lot of folks, there needs to be hope that if I pour [00:38:46] my life into this ministry, um, even if I know it multiplies, and it doesn't, if it doesn't, I [00:38:51] don't really believe it's gonna transform people's lives, then it's difficult to sustain the, [00:38:56] the effort. But once you start to see that, and I love that you have a kind of a dashboard to help [00:39:01] visualize, look, you, you are making an impact.
Jeremy Pryor: Like, this is huge. You know, they were, they were [00:39:06] at 10 out of 100, and now they're up to a 30 and that, and they're growing. And as they're- discipling others, th- they're [00:39:11] gonna grow even more. And, and so there's, you can see, like, that, that loop is [00:39:16] likely to happen. Yeah. So, um, I love that. Okay, um, now take me to, [00:39:21] kind of last thing I wanted to explore with you is, like, a church engagement.
Jeremy Pryor: So, so many churches, I, [00:39:26] I, there, there are a lot of pastors, increasing number of pastors that I believe [00:39:31] really do wanna solve this problem. Um, they just- Oh,
Brian Phipps: yeah ...
Jeremy Pryor: I wa- like, how do we do this? Um, and [00:39:36] so talk, talk me through, at Disciples Made, like, what have you discovered about [00:39:41] that? If a pastor or a church really wants to understand how to create this kind of culture, what have you [00:39:46] guys discovered what it's like to engage a, a whole church in, in a transformation on this [00:39:51] level?
Brian Phipps: I'll start with just strategically at a high level how I would recommend. Yeah. [00:39:56] And then if you want, I'll go into a here's how people usually start to talk to us-
Jeremy Pryor: Okay ...
Brian Phipps: uh, [00:40:01] specifically. I would say from the very beginning, don't announce that you're starting a new [00:40:06] discipleship program.
Jeremy Pryor: Like,
Brian Phipps: like Jesus
Brian Phipps: di- I like to say [00:40:11] this tongue in cheek, you know, Jesus didn't go to Jerusalem, hang up a banner on across the street from the [00:40:16] temple and say, "This ain't your grandma's temple," right?
Brian Phipps: He didn't set that kind of [00:40:21] expectation. He didn't necessitate himself into some type of [00:40:26] performance expectation. Like, you set yourself up for so much [00:40:31] failure-
Jeremy Pryor: Mm ...
Brian Phipps: uh, when there's a heralding before [00:40:36] a, a, a new DNA is implemented. Jesus used the language, um, you [00:40:41] know, of a little bit of yeast in the dough.
Brian Phipps: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Like-
Jeremy Pryor: Mm ...
Brian Phipps: uh, and [00:40:46] he gave so many examples and parables of how it starts small and then eventually gets big [00:40:51] and takes over, and it's like, well, why would we try to do something different than that? Uh, [00:40:56] because it's not fast enough is the answer. Right. And I get the urgency.
Brian Phipps: I so get the [00:41:01] urgency, but the plan will not work. If you wanna introduce this type of [00:41:06] transformation into your DNA, uh, we recommend a quiet pilot.
Jeremy Pryor: [00:41:11] Okay.
Brian Phipps: Don't announce it. Couch it as a pilot. Couch it as your own spiritual pursuit, [00:41:16] a journey that you wanna go on, and you're inviting people that you've been praying for for a couple of weeks into this- [00:41:21] Mm
Brian Phipps: specialized journey, um, that isn't a new program, just a pursuit. [00:41:26] So, and then develop, we've got a whole process for discerning [00:41:31] who are the people God's already preparing to lead one of these in the future? It's probably two out [00:41:36] of 10 on average, just based upon gift sets and whatnot. And so how do I know who [00:41:41] they are, and how does that start with character and consistency before a measure of [00:41:46] competency?
Brian Phipps: Mm. Um, and so we've got a whole process to help people do that, and then [00:41:51] let's say you lead two quiet pilots on the front end, and then each of those [00:41:56] develops two leaders each. Now you've got six potential groups, so [00:42:01] 60 people on the second round. And if that produces even one [00:42:06] new leader each time, and the current leaders repeat, I mean, you're well on your [00:42:11] way to changing the culture.
Brian Phipps: Um, it's kind of from the bottom. it's [00:42:16] really from the bottom up, but it's more like top-down- Yeah ... 'cause you think about it as these are the leaders. They're to- on [00:42:21] top 'cause they help run and influence the organization, but they learn the posture of servant [00:42:26] leadership, and through that servant leadership start to change the culture through their influence.
Brian Phipps: And that [00:42:31] happens when you invest in a few over a longer period of time.
Jeremy Pryor: I thi- I think what fascinates me [00:42:36] most about your model from a, something that's new f- new to me is [00:42:41] you have successfully overlapped discipleship and small groups without [00:42:46] confusing them as the same thing. Like, like
Brian Phipps: Well, it costs us too.
Brian Phipps: Yeah. [00:42:51] Because there's a big learning curve. Yeah.
Jeremy Pryor: that, that's a really fascinating move because I think-
Brian Phipps: [00:42:56] Yeah ...
Jeremy Pryor: I think that if you completely sever or separate small groups and [00:43:01] discipleship, um, then one of the problems that creates is I think pastors really struggle [00:43:06] because they know- that their church survival might not, [00:43:11] might not make it.
Jeremy Pryor: If we, Right ...if- our best people are pulled out of the small group ministry- Yeah ... and are doing [00:43:16] disciple-making. um, you know, but if we just do small groups, then we're never gonna get to a, [00:43:21] any kind of multiplying movement. And so that's a really interesting insight I have not heard before. [00:43:26] Um, and- Well-
Jeremy Pryor: I really appreciate that ...
Brian Phipps: I, I wish I could say I'm, was smart in [00:43:31] thinking it out, but it's basically, he told me to do that very particular thing, and to [00:43:36] invite the five leaders and their co-leaders. So I had a little S, little G small [00:43:41] group- that did this, which is different than small group. Um, and [00:43:46] I noticed that I could essentially change the culture of my small group ministry by [00:43:51] changing the leaders.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Brian Phipps: If I wanted them to change how they actually led in their [00:43:56] group, they had to experience something more valuable in a different group and take it back.
Jeremy Pryor: [00:44:01] Hmm.
Brian Phipps: A- and, uh, so that's how that model actually was shaped. [00:44:06]
Jeremy Pryor: Wow.
Brian Phipps: And it worked.
Jeremy Pryor: That's fascinating. I, I'm, I wanna understand more about that. That's, that's a really, [00:44:11] really profound insight.
Jeremy Pryor: Thank you for sharing that. Okay. Well, uh, this has been awesome, Bryan. Thank you [00:44:16] so much for unpacking that. How can people find you guys, uh, church leaders, if they're interested in [00:44:21] diving in with you guys? What does that look like?
Brian Phipps: Yeah. Uh, go to disciplesmade.com. Okay. The [00:44:26] very top of the page is an invitation to take an assessment.
Brian Phipps: We call it your disciple multiplication [00:44:31] capacity-
Jeremy Pryor: Okay ...
Brian Phipps: assessment. Takes you two or three minutes to fill it out, and then it'll give you next steps [00:44:36] to go in. You can get a free copy of the book, the e-version of the book, [00:44:41] and kinda give you a layout of the whole plan. You can investigate elements in our [00:44:46] app that start to unpack all this stuff.
Brian Phipps: There's tons of free resources in there as well.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay.
Brian Phipps: And [00:44:51] if it makes sense to you, just say, "I want a free 30-minute discovery call." That's [00:44:56] when we get on a call with you and just basically ask, "What are your pain points? What are you trying to [00:45:01] solve?" And if you're wanting, you know, just bigger and more small groups, we'll let you know.
Brian Phipps: [00:45:06] You know, we've got some great people we can recommend y- you to, but [00:45:11] that's not our business. But if you're saying, Yeah ..."I wanna change the culture from [00:45:16] consumerism to disciple multiplication," we can lay out some plans for you based upon your [00:45:21] results and, uh, and some next steps to, to, to, to further pursue whether or not we're a [00:45:26] good fit.
Jeremy Pryor: Amazing. Awesome.
Brian Phipps: Yeah.
Jeremy Pryor: Bryan, thank you so much for jumping on here with me today. appreciate it.
Speaker: [00:45:31] [00:45:36] [00:45:41] Well, friends, thanks for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to learn more about A Thousand [00:45:46] Houses or discover what a season of coaching might look like for you and your household, visit [00:45:51] 1kh.org. We'll see you for the next [00:45:56] [00:46:01] [00:46:06] [00:46:11] [00:46:16] [00:46:21] [00:46:26] [00:46:31] [00:46:36] [00:46:41] episode.
