Speaker: [00:00:01] Howdy, friends. I'm excited to talk to you guys about this book, The Patient [00:00:06] Ferment of the Early Church. Just finished this book last week, and this has had a huge impact on me. [00:00:11] Alan Kreider is the author, and the subtitle is The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the [00:00:16] Roman Empire. His thesis is that there was something very unique about the [00:00:21] first two to three centuries of the early church that has to do with [00:00:26] their obsession around patience, and that this has been almost entirely [00:00:31] lost by the modern church.
Speaker: It actually transitioned, as he describes it around the third, fourth [00:00:36] century. So I'll talk about that. But I wanna give you guys the top 10 things I learned from this. This book has [00:00:41] really impacted me. It , could be in the top three books in the last 10 years, terms of the level of [00:00:46] impact.
Speaker: So I wanna count down the top 10 things I learned from this. So if you're interested, it's a pretty [00:00:51] dense book, very scholarly.
Speaker: It's easy, very easy to read, but certainly a lot of content [00:00:56] but it was definitely worth every page. It kept me hooked all the way through.
Speaker: So I wanna give you guys these top 10 [00:01:01] things, and, I encourage you guys to read this. But if you wanna kinda get the CliffNotes version or the things that are really stirring up inside [00:01:06] of me because of reading this book, I wanna walk through those things with you guys right now.
Speaker: So number 10 [00:01:11] is that evangelism takes place through patience.
Speaker: He points [00:01:16] out that the early church wrote three extensive treaties treaties on patience [00:01:21] but not a single one on evangelism. So he walks through these three different treatises [00:01:26] that were written by the early church and how they were completely obsessed with living this [00:01:31] lifestyle of patience, and it's through patience that their evangelism was done.
Speaker: And it was really remarkable to think [00:01:36] about the way they lived was actually what caused people to become very [00:01:41] intrigued. As he says, "Evangelism comes from people being intrigued by our way of life. Origen [00:01:46] saw, all the world as a theater watching to see how Christians respond to persecution." So part of what they, , [00:01:51] were doing in terms of evangelism is they would undergo these various persecutions, and [00:01:56] because there was so much training on how to patiently endure, through [00:02:01] all kinds of different, adversarial circumstances, people would see , this resilience, this [00:02:06] resilient patience.
Speaker: And this patience was just being fermented constantly by the leaders of the [00:02:11] church, , amongst all of the people that were coming into the kingdom at the time. And it was really [00:02:16] an encounter with that patient ferment that caused people to want to, , become believers. [00:02:21] He says, , quote, "The Christian focus was not on saving people or recruiting them, it was on living [00:02:26] faithfully in the belief that when people's lives are habituated in the way of Jesus, others will [00:02:31] want to join them."
Speaker: So a huge part of this is changing the habits of people from being - the [00:02:36] regular kind of impatient way that somebody would normally live, , being offended and being [00:02:41] reactive to these, circumstances to living out this lifestyle of trust and [00:02:46] patience. , And he quotes, , Wolfgang, Reimelt, who describes church growth in this way.
Speaker: "If the [00:02:51] Christians, , raise their children as Christians and then Christian, men in the course of a generation can [00:02:56] convince only one of his pagan neighbors, that will create explosive growth over three centuries." [00:03:01] So a big part of what , the author was describing is if you can train your own [00:03:06] children.
Speaker: so you keep 100% of your kids or close to 100% and then just, , see one [00:03:11] person come to faith, then you're going to have exponential growth over, , the course of a number of [00:03:16] centuries. And oftentimes when we focus on evangelism, lose our kids in the [00:03:21] process, not, , attract people through our way of life, then this oftentimes leads [00:03:26] to a shrinking church.
Speaker: So it's a really interesting thesis and the connections he was making there, , were very [00:03:31] unique, , and I thought were really helpful.
Speaker: Okay, number nine, their services, their church [00:03:36] services were secret and your engagement with the Christian community would [00:03:41] start with discipleship and then culminate in your baptism and then attendance and [00:03:46] inclusion in the Christian community.
Speaker: So we have this inverted, right? People come to our [00:03:51] worship services and then over time we're hoping that maybe through the course of, you know, [00:03:56] lots and lots of engagement with the worship service we can convince them to go through discipleship, [00:04:01] and they really inverted that process. To them it was you would, be discipled [00:04:06] into a connection over a year or two or three years into baptism and that baptism [00:04:11] would be a baptism into the community and then you start attending, the regular church services.
Speaker: So he [00:04:16] says, "By the second century non-believers were barred from attending the Christians' secret Sunday services. [00:04:21] The church only baptized those who lived their lives as Christ instructed." So there was a series [00:04:26] of what he calls scrutinies and during these scrutinies, , as you were being [00:04:31] discipled they would look at your life and see whether or not it is exhibiting these signs [00:04:36] of this patience that, that he refers to a lot.
Speaker: Are you living a lifestyle of non-violence? [00:04:41] Are you living a lifestyle like Christ? Are you not coercing people? Are you learning how [00:04:46] to endure patiently, any kind of adversarial situation? , Quote, "Those who are [00:04:51] found not living as Jesus taught should know they are not really Christians [00:04:56] even if his teachings are on their lips."
Speaker: This is from Justin Martyr [00:05:01] and part of what he was describing in the book is that- The [00:05:06] way that you talk, what you say you believe to the early Christians was [00:05:11] not really that important. What they really wanted to know is how you lived. So they would be teaching you beliefs, [00:05:16] but they would want to see those beliefs translated in new habits, and those [00:05:21] new habits were the things that they were really scrutinizing.
Speaker: 'Cause during the scrutinies, they didn't [00:05:26] ask what you thought or believed, but what you did. So for the poor example, like you could say, "Well, [00:05:31] yeah, of course I, I wanna serve the poor," but do you, right? And then if you went through these scrutinies, [00:05:36] they determined you were a believer because of the quality of your life, then you'd be baptized.
Speaker: Uh, [00:05:41] they baptized, uh, people three times, once in the name of the Father, then in the Son, and then the Holy Spirit. There [00:05:46] for the first time, they experience the loving solidarity of their new family. , They pray with all [00:05:51] the, the people. They exchange the kiss of peace, and for the first time, they take part in the Eucharist in which [00:05:56] they receive milk and honey as well as bread and wine.
Speaker: They have entered the promised land and can sing, as Origen [00:06:01] put it, a new song. And so there would be this moment where they would come into the church, [00:06:06] and they would go from going through this discipleship process, this catechesis as he described it, [00:06:11] and then as they graduated from that and went through these scrutinies, then they would [00:06:16] enter into the church, and this was a cause for explosive celebration, [00:06:21] milk and honey.
Speaker: Like , you're now in the promised land. So yeah, quite a different way , of entering the church. So [00:06:26] that's number nine.
Speaker: Number eight, , that I learned was God's method according to, [00:06:31] the early church was patience. Origen summarized the Old Testament as God's mission with [00:06:36] Israel was constantly unhurried but unstoppable.
Speaker: And so you see how God [00:06:41] allowed century upon century upon century to transpire in the Old Testament as he was [00:06:46] discipling Israel, even though they were going through all kinds of seasons, , where they were [00:06:51] struggling to overcome idolatry. And so this unhurried, , and [00:06:56] unstoppable, , process that God was initiating with his people is the kind of [00:07:01] process that God is taking the church through.
Speaker: I thought that was really interesting and something that You know, if you think about w- we're [00:07:06] 2,000 years into this process, and it seems like we're struggling, but when you go to the Old [00:07:11] Testament and look how God interacted with Israel, that's fairly consistent. God is not in any [00:07:16] crazy hurry.
Speaker: He is trying to form a kind of people, and he's willing to take centuries and many generations to [00:07:21] get there. , Origen also says, "Never exact an eye for an eye, but respond using silence, [00:07:26] patience, and blessing. Tribulation produces patience." This is also Origen. So [00:07:31] they saw God's method of discipling you was every kind of [00:07:36] situation that you were going through, all of these tribulations were a part of the [00:07:41] design.
Speaker: They were features, not a bug. They caused you to learn the [00:07:46] process of patience and allow the church and the people discipling you to see how you were going to respond [00:07:51] and to really determine whether or not you, you actually believed. And so these situations were [00:07:56] really key for, , for the early church, in this case Origen, the way he was leading his [00:08:01] church, to try to make sure that people were actually believing and following the way of Christ.
Speaker: [00:08:06] Okay, that's number eight.
Speaker: Number seven, full participation, was the way that the [00:08:11] church gathered. So he talks a lot about the way that the first two to three centuries of the [00:08:16] church gathered. He says, "Their gatherings each, , could bring a scripture passage, a testimony, or a [00:08:21] song. Members uttered prophecies, spoke of visions to empower all members [00:08:26] and give them a sense of their worth that expressed itself in courageous living and bold testimony."
Speaker: [00:08:31] So he describes the house church. He says house churches continued to dominate for a full century [00:08:36] after Constantine. He describes how, the people that were a little bit more well off would be the ones who [00:08:41] would often host these, , house church gatherings. They considered their Saturday evening service as [00:08:46] festival days, according to Tertullian.
Speaker: Mornings were for catechesis. Evenings were for meals. [00:08:51] And so they would have time in the morning Where they would on a Sunday morning, [00:08:56] focus on discipling the people that were coming into the kingdom, but often the actual church would gather [00:09:01] in the evening. , He said usually it was a Saturday evening, , because that was their Sunday, right?
Speaker: Because , [00:09:06] they began the day in the evening. , During the first half of the third century, the churches moved from an evening meal [00:09:11] society to more of a morning worship assembly. So it was really about three [00:09:16] centuries into, , the progression of the church where you started to see , this change from , the evening meal [00:09:21] to the morning.
Speaker: He says the post-meal teaching was often focused around people's questions, a lot of interaction. [00:09:26] So you would have a meal, a teaching, and part of that teaching would involve, , interaction. As things became [00:09:31] increasingly liturgical, the words, spoken by the clergy increased. The rest of the congregation, [00:09:36] their interaction decreased.
Speaker: So he really says you can, you can sort of chart a, a transition that [00:09:41] happened where the clergy became more and more, , dominant in the course of [00:09:46] the, , the worship gathering, or the service, , the church service, , the post-meal, , [00:09:51] gathering, and that as that happened, um, the congregation became more [00:09:56] passive.
Speaker: He said that Origen, they talked about the length of his sermons, and they, they usually [00:10:01] lasted between six and 15 minutes because it was just a part of the many things that were being done to build up the [00:10:06] body, and so you would not give all the time to, , the bishop to do a lengthy [00:10:11] sermon because that kind of, , puts a damper on the rest of the, , people that are participating.
Speaker: So from [00:10:16] Tertullian it says, "The banqueters washed their hands, lights were lit. Then each one takes part in [00:10:21] a time of free worship, singing, speaking, drawing from their own hearts as well as possibly from [00:10:26] scripture testimonies, prophecies," and then it would end with prayer and the kiss of peace. The kiss was not normal.
Speaker: It [00:10:31] was something that families shared, and so the church initiated this idea of the kiss of [00:10:36] peace. You see this referred to at the end of many of the epistles where, , the apostles were [00:10:41] instructing people to actually share this kiss, which was something that you would only do with somebody that you [00:10:46] were in a very close relationship with.
Speaker: And so they actually practiced this as a part of the way [00:10:51] that they were breaking down the barriers between people and really entering into a more [00:10:56] family environment.
Speaker: All right, number six, they believe the church would bring on the Messianic , era of [00:11:01] peace and an end to war. So one of the things that Kreider points out is that the most [00:11:06] popular passage in the Old Testament for the early [00:11:11] church was Micah 4. Also it's quoted there in Isaiah 2. It's a very similar [00:11:16] passage where it talks about the end of war, , where in the last days, the mountain of the Lord's house [00:11:21] will be the highest of all the mountains.
Speaker: The peoples of the earth will stream to it. , They'll, , turn their spears into [00:11:26] pruning hooks and their swords into plowshares, and no one will practice war anymore. [00:11:31] They saw this Messianic era of peace being something that is being ushered in by the church. , [00:11:36] He says it was according to scholar Gerhard Lofkin, the prophetic passage most cited in [00:11:41] the early church was, , Micah 4, Isaiah 2.
Speaker: They saw themselves as in the process [00:11:46] of fulfilling this prophecy. , So a big part of this conversation around patience [00:11:51] was that they believed that the church had the power through its patience and through , its [00:11:56] example, , to end war , between nations. And so we'll talk about where, how that [00:12:01] ended.
Speaker: That idea started to get eroded in the Church, but for hundreds of years, the first few hundred [00:12:06] years, this was a major desire for the Church, and they believed they could accomplish, , this kind [00:12:11] of peacemaking through, being non-violent, , and through being patient.
Speaker: All right, [00:12:16] number five, everyone had to be in a right relationship for the service to go forward.
Speaker: So there was an, [00:12:21] a, a really obsession with making sure that every person in the Church... So [00:12:26] again, imagine you... Everybody had to go through this lengthy process to become a member of the Church. So [00:12:31] you didn't have just tons of, like, new people joining the Church that nobody knew. Everybody knew each other well.
Speaker: Everybody [00:12:36] had been discipled, uh, in immersive ways. They understood the Gospel. They understood [00:12:41] the way of Christ. So when there was a dispute that would break out between, , brothers and sisters [00:12:46] within this church, everything would sort of stop until that got resolved, okay? The Didache [00:12:51] says that, for example, "No eating the communal meal until you are reconciled with everyone present."
Speaker: , So if [00:12:56] everyone is not at peace with one another, the worship service, they believe their worship would be worthless. [00:13:01] So God would not receive their worship if there were people that were not getting [00:13:06] along. , Without patience, , Tertullian says the Holy Spirit will leave. Okay, so, [00:13:11] um, man, yeah, , the idea that, okay, what we're offering the world, and this kind of [00:13:16] goes back to the Isaiah 2, Micah 4 idea, we're offering the world a way towards ultimate [00:13:21] peace.
Speaker: Peace in our hearts, peace between God, peace between each other, peace between [00:13:26] nations, and if that peace cannot be lived out in the context of our, you know, [00:13:31] small community, our house church, then what do we have to give the world? Nothing, right? So they were [00:13:36] very adamant about this, and we'll talk about this in a minute, but, , this was a huge part of the life of the bishop, was to [00:13:41] really bring about this kind of life of peace between the members of the [00:13:46] congregation.
Speaker: All right, number four, everyone was given a sponsor, what we would think of today as a discipler. [00:13:51] So it says, quote, "It is an absolute necessity that you who are haughty and powerful and [00:13:56] rich should appoint for yourselves some man of God as a trainer, or a pilot." This [00:14:01] is, , Clement of Alexandria.
Speaker: The trainer or pilot would face the second scrutiny, where the sponsor [00:14:06] gives account to the church's leader for the candidate's progress and [00:14:11] habitus. So part of what happened is if you started becoming intrigued by this way [00:14:16] of life, you would be given a sponsor. One of the things that Clement is really emphasizing here [00:14:21] is if you are used to being, high status in the world, [00:14:26] then you really are gonna need help because this is going to disrupt so much of your life [00:14:31] that somebody needs to really guide you into having this very humble way , [00:14:36] of Christ about you And so it's going to take months, years [00:14:41] for you to learn the habits that are going to transform your heart and transform the way that you live , and [00:14:46] allow you to enter into the church in a positive way.
Speaker: So there were these series of scrutinies, I think there was four [00:14:51] total, but the second scrutiny he pointed out was actually the person being scrutinized was [00:14:56] not the person being discipled, it was the actual sponsor pilot, the discipler, who would be [00:15:01] asked the questions, "Is this person really exhibiting the way of Christ?"
Speaker: Asking - detailed questions about their [00:15:06] way of life, understand their oc- occupation, their family, everything that's going on in their life would be [00:15:11] scrutinized to see whether or not this transformation was actually taking place. And this would, of [00:15:16] course, be particular to, , if you were this sort of high-status person.
Speaker: This would become something that [00:15:21] you would be deeply scrutinized to see if this change was actually occurring. Sponsors, it says, are very [00:15:26] important, using an almost military discipline of changing human reflexes like a boot camp [00:15:31] or a wrestling school. So they really wanted your [00:15:36] impulses to be transformed, your human reflexes, so that when you [00:15:41] were attacked, , when you were being insulted, like something else would come out of you that was totally [00:15:46] unique.
Speaker: And again, this was not something that they thought could just magically happen through [00:15:51] believing the gospel, but they believed it had to be trained into you as well. So the belief was sort of the foundation [00:15:56] for the transformation, but the actual training was required for the transformation [00:16:01] to really work its way into your habits.
Speaker: Which brings us to number three, catechesis [00:16:06] was designed to change your habits. The catechists knew that people [00:16:11] are profoundly formed by the stories they tell. Many catechists made it a priority to present [00:16:16] the Bible's narrative to replace the pagan stories as their primary fund of memory. So [00:16:21] they were deeply discipled in the stories in Scripture, the stories in the Gospels, and [00:16:26] these would really,, replace a lot of the pagan stories that were forming other habits.
Speaker: And so they [00:16:31] saw how story-formed people were, and they really used that in a way to ensure that people going [00:16:36] through catechesis were learning the kinds of stories that would transform their habits. In the [00:16:41] catechesis, Christians become a peaceful people, soldiers of peace in God's, quote, [00:16:46] "bloodless army who wear the armor of peace."
Speaker: They gave rings with images of [00:16:51] fish, sails, anchors, never swords, bows, because we [00:16:56] cultivate peace. One of the things that was so clear in Kreider's writing is how [00:17:01] peaceful they were and how unusual that was at , this time in history, and so the idea that they [00:17:06] are soldiers of peace, a peaceful people, a bloodless army, again, that was their evangelism method.[00:17:11]
Speaker: People were like, "Well, what is going on with you? You just patiently endure being [00:17:16] attacked? Like, that's crazy." And this is what caused people to take a second [00:17:21] look at the Christians of their day to try to figure out you know, what was [00:17:26] really motivating them to live this completely different kind of life.
Speaker: All right, number two, , I [00:17:31] was really struck with how the bishops, lived at this time. Of course, bishop, elder, , presbyter, these , are [00:17:36] similar words. But you definitely had at these times, specific leaders who were [00:17:41] emerging, , that were really important for each of these congregations.
Speaker: , Community leaders were [00:17:46] bivocational and unpaid, , at first until the requirements grew beyond their voluntary capacity. So there [00:17:51] was a time where a lot of the bishops , were not being paid, at all, , and [00:17:56] were bivocational. The Didascalia, , this is a, another book that he goes into lots of [00:18:01] detail about, like understanding the way that, that, that they were living.
Speaker: The - Didascalia wants the bishop to [00:18:06] make a scene of giving up his chair to an older person and demonstrate, uh, [00:18:11] basically the decision not to be class conscious. So somebody walks into the church The [00:18:16] Didascalia, it gives instruction to each person about what to do. So if this person is poor, [00:18:21] you wanna make sure that they get a place to, to sit.
Speaker: , If this person is older than the bishop, or [00:18:26] then the bishop would stop the entire service basically to [00:18:31] give up his seat to this elder person. , And that this process [00:18:36] of demonstrating what, you know, James talks about in, uh, in James 2, the, the giving [00:18:41] up of chairs, the flattening of status, , was something that the bishop explicitly needed [00:18:46] to participate in.
Speaker: Says leaders had three main responsibilities: relief for the poor, community life, and [00:18:51] catechesis. And then if a dispute, , arose, a deacon would investigate, and then on a [00:18:56] Tuesday, they would form a sort of court-like hearing to figure [00:19:01] out how to resolve this dispute between believers that would be overseen by the bishop.
Speaker: [00:19:06] Because peacefulness was such a massive priority, , what you [00:19:11] had with the bishops were , they had to engage whenever there [00:19:16] was a dispute between believers to really investigate enough to figure out like who was at [00:19:21] fault and how to resolve this. Because again, they couldn't continue with their worship while [00:19:26] brothers or brothers and sisters or sisters were at odds with each other.
Speaker: And I just found [00:19:31] that really interesting. I'm still like really processing what that would look like. So [00:19:36] the three things, again, that the bishop would really engage in is relief for the poor, community [00:19:41] life, you know, which is ensuring that the quality of the life, , the unity of the believers was preserved, [00:19:46] and then they were constantly involved in catechesis or what we call discipleship, really helping [00:19:51] these people that were kind of pre, uh, members to the church go through the [00:19:56] one, two, three-year process of catechesis to fully imbibe the way of [00:20:01] Jesus so that when they joined the church in that massive celebratory moment, went through [00:20:06] baptism, and received their first Eucharist, everyone was fully aware that they had been trained in the [00:20:11] way of Christ and could represent the community in public.
Speaker: And so they would join [00:20:16] this sort of secret, weekly, , service.
Speaker: So, , number one, the last thing I learned, and [00:20:21] this is, uh, very sad But, , necessary thing to learn. , [00:20:26] Kreider really points out that Constantine was the beginning of the end of, , this sort of, , theme of [00:20:31] patience, and that Augustine was basically the nail in the coffin.
Speaker: He was the end. , And so he's got two [00:20:36] chapters at the very end, one about Constantine and the impact that Constantine had on the Church. But man, [00:20:41] does he not hold back on the impact that Augustine had and how that was really the [00:20:46] end of the culture of patience. , And he really goes into detail as to what Augustine [00:20:51] wrote and, and how this happened.
Speaker: And I think he holds Augustine more accountable. One of the things I didn't realize , and that , he [00:20:56] really points out a lot in, in the book is that Constantine was not baptized until, I [00:21:01] think, just days before he died. And the reason was because the Church was holding [00:21:06] to this very high standard of how you need to live if you're a part of our [00:21:11] community.
Speaker: Constantine could not really, as the emperor, living like a Roman [00:21:16] emperor, executing people , like, going through those kinds of processes, was [00:21:21] so radically different than the way that the Church lived. So even [00:21:26] though he believed in Jesus, he really couldn't join the Church. And so he was going through [00:21:31] this process of like, you know, overseeing councils and, you know, weighing in on [00:21:36] theology, all while not a member of the Church, not being in any kind of submission to a particular [00:21:41] congregation, not having gone through baptism until, just before he died.
Speaker: So there was a bishop, [00:21:46] Lactantius, who constantly was exhorting Constantine, , about, how , he could go through [00:21:51] this transformation. It says, , "Lactantius, , exhorted him that religion must be defended [00:21:56] not by killing but by dying, not by violence but by patience." Imagine how that would sound to a [00:22:01] Roman emperor.
Speaker: "You're gonna defend the faith not by killing but by [00:22:06] dying." Wow, so difficult to imagine how that was going to get [00:22:11] assimilated into a church, a state church, right? And so there was a lot of [00:22:16] tension between the way the early Church was functioning and Constantine really trying to [00:22:21] integrate Christianity more into the emperor.
Speaker: Another thing he pointed out was Constantine, there were [00:22:26] certain issues he weighed in on very heavily. He absolutely hated the Jewish calendar and the influence [00:22:31] of, uh, sort of the Jewish, , elements of the faith, and so he, so Kreider talks about that. [00:22:36] Says, "In order for those who have more worldly concerns to be accepted in the church, a two-tier [00:22:41] kind of lifestyle began to emerge where the clergy was held to a higher standard, and the standard for the [00:22:46] laity was lowered.
Speaker: At this time, clergy began to wear even distinct clothing." So one of the things that [00:22:51] occurred because of Constantine is you had all these people that were a part of the government, that were [00:22:56] participating in things that in the past, if you were doing those things, you'd have to basically quit your job to join the [00:23:01] church, or there'd be very strict restrictions on things that you could or couldn't do even as a part [00:23:06] of your occupation.
Speaker: And so this caused people to really have to pull back. Well, [00:23:11] one of the weird things that started to occur is because so many of these more high-status government officials, [00:23:16] people in the military, things like that, wanted to join the church, , how do you do this while still trying to [00:23:21] hold onto the way of Christ?
Speaker: And so what began to emerge is this two-tier [00:23:26] system where the clergy was, okay, held to a higher standard than the laity in order [00:23:31] to allow people like Constantine to get closer to the Church, people that were in official positions that [00:23:36] historically would either have to, , resign their occupation or would have to, , be very restricted.
Speaker: [00:23:41] And so in order , for this to become more realistic, you know, in their sense, to rule - an empire [00:23:46] but still believe in the way of Jesus, we're gonna hold the clergy responsible for living out this [00:23:51] very pure lifestyle, but the laity, they will be given a lot more leeway [00:23:56] to live in this secular world, right?
Speaker: And then Augustine formalized the distinction between [00:24:01] the sacred and the secular, those dedicated to church and those who keep the wheels of commerce [00:24:06] and government turning. And so Augustine was sort of the apologist for this [00:24:11] transformation. He says Augustine altered the Church's approach to non-violence and patience.
Speaker: He was in favor of [00:24:16] using coercive power of the state in situations like his fight with the Pelagians of his day. [00:24:21] And so at the very end of the book, Kreider says that this book travels from patient [00:24:26] ferment to impatient force And so that's kind [00:24:31] of what it leaves you with, this question. And the question I would pose to you guys, and what I've been really [00:24:36] asking myself as I've been reading this book is, did we make a huge mistake [00:24:41] when we decided to fuse church and state?
Speaker: And did we [00:24:46] reinterpret the Gospels in light of how do we wield [00:24:51] power like a secular government while still trying to hold to the way of Jesus? [00:24:56] And when you really take a step back and look at the way that the early church thought about [00:25:01] this, How they interpreted the words of Christ, how they lived the words of Christ, how that resulted , [00:25:06] in explosive evangelism, how it began to move us toward the Messianic , era of [00:25:11] peace, and how idealistic that sounded to people that were in ruling [00:25:16] positions of power.
Speaker: And that just started to break down [00:25:21] when we created this fusion that Augustine really cemented, which is he was really [00:25:26] trying to figure out, how do you live, , as a government? How does [00:25:31] the church and how does the city of God work with the city of man? How do these things kind of interact?
Speaker: [00:25:36] And so he began his journey as Krayter describes, Augustine kind of began in a [00:25:41] place where he understood , the role of patience, and even wrote his own treatise , on patience. [00:25:46] But he began to really change and redefine what that meant as he, , [00:25:51] was coaching and, , exhorting people in government, particularly the emperor.
Speaker: And so [00:25:56] this assumption that church and state have to get together really changed the whole nature [00:26:01] of the way that people thought about, , topics, , like patience that was so [00:26:06] central. And now it's almost completely foreign to [00:26:11] modern Christians to think that patience is the primary means through which we are [00:26:16] distinct from the way that others live.
Speaker: , So wow, I can't recommend this book enough. [00:26:21] I think it's so important that we understand , the roots, and I believe that most people's [00:26:26] traditions when it comes to their church or their theology, it usually roots itself back into a certain [00:26:31] century. It might root back to the Reformation. But for so many of us, there are a lot of things that [00:26:36] started around the third or fourth century with Constantine and Augustine that I think we need to [00:26:41] question and push back into the first and second centuries.
Speaker: And Krayter's book does a fantastic job of [00:26:46] helping guide you through the process of really considering what a [00:26:51] pre-Constantinian, pre-Augustinian church looked like
