Speaker 2: [00:00:01] one of the greatest forks in the road that we've ever had to face in trying to understand how to restore biblical [00:00:06] church is Should we try to find a [00:00:11] way to adapt this sort of house church culture [00:00:16] with modern Western families, or do we not need to take a big step [00:00:21] backward and actually begin to challenge Christians to [00:00:26] reestablish the biblical household?
Speaker 2: And we faced that decision, that fork, about [00:00:31] 17 years ago, and we, finally flipped and said, "Okay, we are gonna take a step back. [00:00:36] We're going to start restoring the biblical household. We're going to go into [00:00:41] churches and into Christendom as a whole and begin to confront this problem and say, [00:00:46] 'Guys, we need to reestablish the biblical household.'"
Speaker: [00:00:51] Well, welcome back to another episode of the Pastor to Pioneer podcast. Today, I'm [00:00:56] here with Jeremy Pryor, and I'm so pumped to finally have Jeremy Pryor on the [00:01:01] podcast. I can't believe, honestly, that we've made it to, like, 101 episodes and [00:01:06] you haven't been on yet. Maybe I, I was waiting for it to be, like, a legitimate podcast, Jeremy, before [00:01:11] we inv- invited you on.
Speaker: Um, and the reason is, is because, uh, [00:01:16] for those of you that don't know Jeremy, I, I think a lot of you, of our listeners probably do, he's, [00:01:21] uh, been in this space of ministry outside the institution for a long time [00:01:26] and doing some really amazing innovative things. But, uh, Jeremy Pryor, he's the [00:01:31] co-founder of FamilyTeams and the founder of A Thousand Houses, also known as 1KH.
Speaker: Um, [00:01:36] and these movements are, are built around the idea... I mean, not... They're simple, but they're [00:01:41] very counterculture ideas, that the family was not meant to be this passive recipient of church [00:01:46] ministry, and that it was meant to be a household on mission and a [00:01:51] multi-generational team, a multi-generational family on mission.
Speaker: And, and when I heard that from you, Jeremy, I was like, [00:01:56] "Oh my word. Uh, that's, that's it." And the thing I've appreciated about [00:02:01] Jeremy here is that he's not just been talking about this, he's not been writing, just writing about this, he's not just been [00:02:06] podcasting about this. Jeremy's a dude that has been living this.
Speaker: Uh, [00:02:11] he actually does this with his family, with his kids, multi-generational family, [00:02:16] um, which I'm sure he'll tell us more about what that looks like. Even, I think, a compound from what I understand to some [00:02:21] degree in the Cincinnati, Ohio area. Started businesses, [00:02:26] uh, for family members to work together. I'm just, like, thinking way outside of the box.
Speaker: So I'm not gonna [00:02:31] tell your whole story, Jeremy. I'm just really pumped to have you on the podcast, so thanks for being on today, man. I really appreciate it. [00:02:36]
Speaker 2: Britton, thanks for having me, man, and thanks for all the work you're doing. This is such an important [00:02:41] ministry. I love... I have such a huge heart for folks who are obviously called [00:02:46] to ministry, but find the institution really confusing and not [00:02:51] maybe the best vehicle for all their callings.
Speaker 2: I'm certainly in that camp, and so anybody who's listening to [00:02:56] this and that's your story, I'm right with you. And, uh, Britton, thanks for reaching out to this group, 'cause I, [00:03:01] I love this group. These are, these are my people.
Speaker: Hey, thanks. I think that, I think that's probably a good place [00:03:06] for us to start. Um, you also are a former [00:03:11] pastor, have spent a lot of time in the prevailing model, and so you identify with a lot [00:03:16] of our listeners.
Speaker: I, I would love to hear a little bit about that, some of your, your early days, just coming to faith, and [00:03:21] what led you into kinda traditional pastoral ministry.
Speaker 2: Yeah. When I was a [00:03:26] kid, like in, um, high school, like early high school, I was... I kind of assumed I'd go into business, [00:03:31] and I had a amazing experience with a youth pastor who was in [00:03:36] business and gave it all up to become a youth pastor, and he was a very unusual youth pastor.
Speaker 2: People, when they hear [00:03:41] youth pastor, sometimes they think about, you know, maybe an overgrown kid. This guy is the absolute opposite. This guy [00:03:46] was building an army to, like, take on the gates of hell, and I was like, "I'm all in. This is [00:03:51] amazing." And I- So he discipled me, um, and I was like, give my life to youth ministry.
Speaker 2: I was like, "I, I just [00:03:56] wanna, like, do that." He kind of definitely, like, cultivated the, the atmosphere of [00:04:01] why do anything else? Like, why, why get involved in all this secular marketplace stuff when you can just, [00:04:06] you know, go straight for, uh, full-time ministry life? Like, what, what [00:04:11] else matters? And so that, that really captured me.
Speaker 2: Um, and most of that was really, really healthy for me, but I [00:04:16] do think it kinda created a bit of this dualism. You know, like, oh, maybe there's, th- there's a [00:04:21] place over here that's really, like, kinda a little bit dark and dirty, and this place over here is a little bit more [00:04:26] pure. Um, so I, w- when I, I started going to different Bible colleges and seminary.
Speaker 2: I actually ended [00:04:31] up g- I don't know how many. Like, uh, I think two or three different... I did two or three different undergraduate, and then I went to [00:04:36] five different seminaries. I, I... There was a... I was, I was a junkie, uh, chasing professors [00:04:41] around, um- So I was very involved in ministry, and all throughout that time I was on, on staff at different churches.
Speaker 2: I think I [00:04:46] told Brittany, I told you I, I think I was on staff at seven different churches throughout that time, various different [00:04:51] positions, youth ministry, discipleship pastor, all these different, uh, pastoral positions. And [00:04:56] so that, that was kind of where my story went. Um, and I, I had a, you know, I had a relatively [00:05:01] positive experience, um, both in the academy, where I was really trying to understand.
Speaker 2: I, I was [00:05:06] really trying to figure things out. I've always been, uh, obsessed with first principles. Like I wanna [00:05:11] know what is the foundation, like what's really real. I don't really like when I discover that we're [00:05:16] very far removed from what the Bible actually says.
Speaker 2: This makes me like just quintessentially [00:05:21] Protestant. I'm like, "What's the foundation?" Like, um, yeah, these are interesting traditions. I wanna know where [00:05:26] this came, came from. So I, I, I spent a lot of time trying to figure that out. Um, and that was my life for, you [00:05:31] know, my, the first, you know, whatever, 10 years of my kind of career, [00:05:36] uh, work life, was going to different churches, going to different seminaries, asking a lot of uncomfortable [00:05:41] questions.
Speaker 2: Um, and then eventually, you know, definitely going through a, a very dramatic [00:05:46] transition that took me out of, uh- Hmm ... traditional ministry. But that, that's where I started.
Speaker: Wow. [00:05:51] When you... So when you were asking those questions within the institution, those different roles, how were those [00:05:56] questions received?
Speaker 2: It's very difficult. So I, I, I frame it differently [00:06:01] now. The way that I think about this whole... What I, what I went through in those 10 years [00:06:06] was I have an apostolic gift, little A apostolic. [00:06:11] In, in other words, I care a ton about, like I said, first principles and architecture. I just, [00:06:16] I au- automatically gravitate towards that.
Speaker 2: That, that kind of person's a nightmare to have a pastor to, [00:06:21] to try to pastor somebody like me. Like, I, I have a lot... I, I now have a ton of empathy for those pastors who are [00:06:26] like, "What the heck? Why you go- why are you asking these questions?" I wanna know why everything. Why are we, why are we drinking communion [00:06:31] out, out of these little cups?
Speaker 2: Why, you know, why aren't we having a meal together? Like, why, why do we say it's all [00:06:36] about love and community and we don't even know each other? Like, I was just very confused about this, and I was constantly [00:06:41] asking these kinds of questions, and so pastors were like, you know, they, they, they... These guys were shepherds.
Speaker 2: They were li- [00:06:46] Some, some were teachers and some were shepherds. They just weren't gifted at the architecture. This was [00:06:51] not their calling. But this was my calling, you know? Mm-hmm. And I would say that one of the things that the traditional [00:06:56] church struggles a lot with is it disrespects the apostolic gift. It does not want those kinds of [00:07:01] questions.
Speaker 2: And I think that there's a good reason and a bad reason for that. The good reason is because [00:07:06] some of these guys are teachers. They, you know, in the fivefold sense, there's tea- they're teachers, they're pastors, they're [00:07:11] evangelists. And guys that are more apostolically gifted are really annoying because they're not asking those questions.
Speaker 2: They're [00:07:16] like, "Guys, I'm just trying to reach the lost. I'm trying to shepherd these sheep. I'm trying to teach people, [00:07:21] and Jeremy keeps asking these really annoying, uh, you know, questions." So a- again, like I have, I [00:07:26] have empathy for that, and I think that my gift has a particular... Now, people that have more of an [00:07:31] architecture gift, they tend to go into missions, uh, into business, [00:07:36] um, and there's not a lot of places within strong traditions where there's a lot [00:07:41] of history.
Speaker 2: Because the, the reason is it's not that there's not apostolic [00:07:46] foundations to every tradition, but usually those apostles have died [00:07:51] And you no longer have access to that blueprint. So if you're in the Methodist Church, John [00:07:56] Wesley was an incredible apostolic thinker.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 2: He's dead.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Somebody like me needs to go talk to [00:08:01] John Wesley and say- Hmm
Speaker 2: "Hey, could you explain this to me? Why?" But he's gone, and there's nobody in that [00:08:06] seat who... The, unfortunately, what we've done in the church is instead of [00:08:11] passing on the baton from one apostolic leader to the next, we get rid of that gift [00:08:16] altogether, and we double down on the pastoral or the teaching or some other gifts because we t- we're [00:08:21] trying to...
Speaker 2: we're inherently conservative, and we're trying to conserve what that apostolic leader [00:08:26] created as opposed to... And that's the reason why virtually every church movement slowly dies. [00:08:31] Because nobody has access to the blueprint. Nobody can update the blueprint. And so [00:08:36] that's what, that's the conversation I wanna have.
Speaker 2: Like-
Speaker: Wow ...
Speaker 2: somebody show me the blueprint.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker 2: Now, maybe this was an [00:08:41] amazing, like, like, Methodism was absolutely brilliant, you know, if you lived in the, [00:08:46] 18th century. Like, it was an incredible idea, right? In the 21st century, it's got [00:08:51] issues, and, and that's true of every tradition. Every tradition- Yeah
Speaker 2: needs to be updated- Yeah ... because there's new wine, [00:08:56] and there, there needs to be new wineskins. Um, but that's not a conversation that people like to have. [00:09:01]
Speaker: So you're, you're spot on. So what led you to finally [00:09:06] realize, "Okay, I'm, I'm not gonna get anywhere within these current [00:09:11] structures, within the current wineskin.
Speaker: I'm beating my head up against the w- the wa- the wall. [00:09:16] These guys are frustrated with me. I need something more dramatic of a [00:09:21] change." Like, w- when did, like, when did you realize that, and what was that [00:09:26] transition like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went through a couple different transitions. One, one was, I would say one, one had to do with community, and [00:09:31] one had to do with authority.
Speaker 2: So the community one was I was at a non-denominational church, about 1,000 [00:09:36] people, doing the youth ministry thing in the church I grew up in, and there was a particular staff meeting, a Tuesday we'd... [00:09:41] We had a staff meeting every Tuesday morning. And I call it the meeting of the throwing prayer card.
Speaker 2: So e- [00:09:46] we- people would, during the worship service, they would fill out these prayer cards, and, um, we [00:09:51] would pray over them. But we wanted to give the cards to the pastor who knew the [00:09:56] people. Well, there was a g- the executive pastor had the list of, of, of, um, prayer [00:10:01] cards, and he would read each one, and, "Does anybody know this person?"
Speaker 2: Nobody knew this person, so you just throw it at somebody. [00:10:06] Okay. Anybody know this person? Nobody know it. Throw it. Literally, like, we got to the 10th card, and none of [00:10:11] us knew any of these people. Wow. And, and we started joking, and then people were, like, [00:10:16] throwing, like, "No, you take this person." You know, like, and it, we were all laughing, but I [00:10:21] want, like- Something, something inside of me was also dying in that moment.
Speaker 2: I [00:10:26] was like, "What are we doing?" Like, how is this the church? Like, we don't [00:10:31] know any of these people. Like, we- we're, we're fantastic at pulling off a worship service, [00:10:36] but there's something missing, I think. And th- th- this was actually the moment when I realized I'm [00:10:41] not going to continue on the pathway of, like, promoting m- you [00:10:46] know, I, I'm not gonna...
Speaker 2: I looked at the senior pastor in that, in that room, and I'm like, "I'm not gonna ever be that." [00:10:51] Like, and that's, this was actually a moment of crisis, 'cause I, you know, my wife was pregnant. We were about to, you [00:10:56] know... I'm like, "I, I need to provide for a family. I need to n- I, I can't be asking and [00:11:01] resetting my career trajectory endlessly while I'm trying to provide for a family.
Speaker 2: Like, I gotta get serious about [00:11:06] this." My dad actually called me. He's like, "Jeremy, I think it's time for you to potentially go back to [00:11:11] seminary," because I, I was like, maybe I could become a Bible college professor. Like, this is a place where maybe I could tease out a lot of [00:11:16] these questions, and that's when I ended up moving to Boston and going to Gordon-Conwell, and that's where I [00:11:21] kinda encountered the second thing, which was I had a...
Speaker 2: I was a part of a very small Baptist church. I was doing youth ministry while I [00:11:26] was at, at seminary, and in that place, m- me and the [00:11:31] senior pastor of that church, um, collided in a lot of, a lot of ways. And a- again, you [00:11:36] can tell, like, a lot of this is my fault. I have a lot of questions, um, and the poor guy [00:11:41] was, was doing his best.
Speaker 2: Um, but, but one of the, the things that I finally realized was, look, [00:11:46] there's a, there's a structure within this ins- institution, and my job is, if I'm going to stay in [00:11:51] this institution and pull a paycheck, I need to submit to, uh, this man's leadership, and [00:11:56] including, like, like, where he's at. And so I finally went to him one day, and I just said, you know, to the pastor, I'm like, " I'm [00:12:01] here to implement your vision. Like, you see I have a vision. You see I have a lot of questions. [00:12:06] Um, I am really sorry. I feel like I am not properly respecting the hierarchy [00:12:11] within this institution, and if I'm going... I can leave, and I, I probably will be [00:12:16] leaving." Obviously, he knew this was temporary for me.
Speaker 2: Um, "But while I'm here, I'm going to serve [00:12:21] this within the structure that it's at." And so, and there, there did come a moment where I [00:12:26] was asked to do something that I just felt like was a violation of my calling. Nothing immoral. Mm. It just, like, it [00:12:31] just was so- Mm-hmm ... outside of what I felt was my calling that I, I did have to resign, and [00:12:36] that was when, like, I started praying, and I, I asked the Lord, "Please."[00:12:41]
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything else. I'd been to seminary. I'd been in, I'd been in... You know, I had two little kids. We lived in, we're living in a [00:12:46] parsonage. We were dirt poor, living off of $20,000 a year, trying to [00:12:51] survive in this extremely wealthy, uh, town north of Boston. And I was like... And, [00:12:56] um, it's a long story, but the Lord gave me an idea for a business.
Speaker 2: Um, we ended up building the [00:13:01] world's largest Lord of the Rings collectibles, uh, e-commerce store before the movies came out. This was back [00:13:06] in 2001. So we built this big business. Um, and, um, and the Lord [00:13:11] just really blessed us, and this was not only a place where we were financially able to [00:13:16] provide for my family, but also it sort of became business school for me.
Speaker 2: And [00:13:21] so we've ended up starting seven different businesses as a family over the last 20 years since then. [00:13:26] And, uh, and so I, I am very, I'm very into bivocational ministry [00:13:31] at this point. Very, very far down that path. I spend a lot of time coaching guys [00:13:36] who are, um, trying to enter into bivocational ministry.
Speaker 2: We coach about 80 families a year that are making the [00:13:41] move from typical W-2 paychecks into business ownership for the sake of their [00:13:46] family, for the sake of their, their ministry calling, you know, for all these th- these things. So I'm, I, I have [00:13:51] enormous empathy for people because I was absolutely terrified.
Speaker 2: I did not know how in the world to provide for my kids, [00:13:56] um, my family, this young family, and God was so faithful to us. And so, but that's how it [00:14:01] started for me.
Speaker: That's just so wild that you start an e- w- first, back [00:14:06] then, an e-commerce store is, like, way ahead of its time, right? Right. And then you're doing- This is back
Speaker 2: when Amazon was just [00:14:11] selling books, so
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah. And then you're, you're doing that, plus it's Lord of the Rings before the movies come out. Like, [00:14:16] wow, what insight from the Lord to, to get on that before that. Yeah, it came
Speaker 2: from the
Speaker: Lord. Oh, amazing. Yeah, He's a good
Speaker 2: father. [00:14:21] Yeah.
Speaker: Amazing. Um, so what w- I'm curious, what was that [00:14:26] transition like for you and your family?
Speaker: Like, the practicali- You're moving out of this [00:14:31] into this. Obviously, you see financial suc- success, but what, what was that like even internally and [00:14:36] wrestling... Was that a hard transition for you? Or was it like, "Oh my gosh, this-"
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very confusing because I was like, I, [00:14:41] I definitely felt like I had a ministry calling.
Speaker 2: So I made a deal with the Lord, 'cause I was like, you know, this is a moment where people are [00:14:46] like, "Are you leaving the ministry?" You know, like-
Speaker: Oh, yeah. Oh,
Speaker 2: yeah ... like, like, "Are you backsliding?" Um- Yeah, [00:14:51] of course. And, uh, how do you think about this? And I, I was really confused, so I, I, I [00:14:56] kind of like, as I prayed about it, I really felt like the Lord gave me a specific direction, and that was the [00:15:01] minute our, uh, business income s- uh, paid [00:15:06] for our basic, you know, family expenses, I wanted to [00:15:11] donate at least up to 20 hours a week or around part-time, um, [00:15:16] you know, back to ministry.
Speaker 2: And it took about maybe 18 months of building this business [00:15:21] And I remember the moment. So we had moved from Boston to Northern Kentucky, Cincinnati area, where we live [00:15:26] now. Um, you know, and we were slowly, you know, building this business out, and it was [00:15:31] growing, and the b- the movies were coming out, and so we're, we were seeing a s- a fair amount of, um, revenue success [00:15:36] and, and some money dropping to the bottom line for our family.
Speaker 2: And I remember this moment where I was like, "Oh, my [00:15:41] gosh, I, I think... Ooh, wow, this month, it- we're... All the money's [00:15:46] there, and I don't have to keep working, like, at this same level." We were working, [00:15:51] you know, 50, 60, 70 hours a week. I could work 20 hours a week, and I think the business would keep growing. [00:15:56] So I, I literally went to our pastor, um, at the church.
Speaker 2: We were going to a vineyard at the time, and I just went, and I said, [00:16:01] like, "I wanna volunteer, you know, 20 hours a week. You know, what, what, what do you got for [00:16:06] me?" And he's like, "Well, can we just make you a pastor on staff as a volunteer pastor?" I'm like, "Great. You know, what [00:16:11] do you need?" He's like, "We need a discipleship pastor."
Speaker 2: I'm like, "That sounds perfect. I, I really would love to do that." So [00:16:16] he just said, "Look, um, could we... There's one caveat. Could we not [00:16:21] announce to the, uh, church that you're, um, not [00:16:26] paid? Because they're gonna treat you differently. Like, they're not gonna come to you or ask you questions or whatever. They're gonna think they're [00:16:31] bugging you or something."
Speaker 2: I'm like, "Sure, I don't care." And so, so I was on staff. I was going to staff [00:16:36] meetings. I was doing all this stuff as a volunteer pastor, and I was doing it for, you know, over a year. There was a [00:16:41] kind of weird thing that happened about a year into that experience. Um, the [00:16:46] pastor called me, and he's like, "Jeremy, I just heard that you have planned a, you know, a trip [00:16:51] down to Florida with your family this winter.
Speaker 2: Um, and I think you already took, you know, a vacation [00:16:56] earlier this year. Um, this is your second vacation. Like, I, I don't know if, if I can [00:17:01] approve that." I said, "Well, no, I..." You know, "Look, we, we..." You know, 'cause I was running, [00:17:06] you know, the business while doing this. I'm like, "We, we've already got it booked. We're gonna do it."
Speaker 2: And he's like, he's like, "Jeremy, I don't know what to [00:17:11] tell the other pastors that you're taking this second vacation." And I said, "Hey, why don't you tell [00:17:16] them you don't pay me any money?" He's like, "I forgot. Oh, my [00:17:21] gosh. I'm so sorry." Feel free to go on [00:17:26] your vacation. I'm like, "Thank you, thank you. Uh, thanks for your permission, I appreciate it."
Speaker 2: [00:17:31] So, um, anyway, um, so, uh, I'm just saying all that to say this [00:17:36] category doesn't exactly exist. And so one of the things I do, like, to this day, like, I have about 70 guys who are [00:17:41] very successful entrepreneurs in a mastermind, um, that I, I run called Integrated, and one of the things I'm trying to [00:17:46] help them do is think about how to aggressively be a part of the Kingdom of God.
Speaker 2: [00:17:51] 'Cause, 'cause you think about, like, there's two ways you can talk about this. You talk about pastors who are trying to become [00:17:56] bivocational. But what about successful business owners who have access to 20, 30 hours [00:18:01] of their week that could give to the kingdom? Pastors don't know how to steward these guys, right?
Speaker 2: And I, I'm [00:18:06] very passionate about helping these guys, like, hey, the Kingdom of God is worthy of your [00:18:11] full attention. Like, it's- Mm. If you don't need to work for money anymore, you can dial that down to 20 hours a week, [00:18:16] then in the kingdom we need to have places for you to full... I mean, and these guys [00:18:21] have run successful businesses, some of them have had dramatic exits out of, you know, [00:18:26] businesses.
Speaker 2: And, you know, in the kingdom, they're just... We have this really weird paradigm of, like, you're either [00:18:31] called into the ministry and you're a full-time clergy person, or you're a lay person and, you know, please, you know, drop [00:18:36] your tithe. It's like, it's weird, and we need to have this other category, which is that all [00:18:41] of us are all in ministry, and sometimes when we're successful [00:18:46] financially, that could just mean why, why don't we volunteer a lot?
Speaker 2: Why don't we take [00:18:51] some of these major positions? And my dad did this. I, I saw this growing up. We were part of a bizarre [00:18:56] little, um, denomination called the Plymouth Brethren, and my, my, you know, I'm a part of this, [00:19:01] you know, multiple, like, generations back. And my dad, you know, he worked full [00:19:06] time, and he was, like, he probably did, like, a third to a half of the, the [00:19:11] teaching of the church as a volunteer.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker 2: So our, our family's always done this. [00:19:16] Al- always had this idea, uh, in our family's culture of, like, [00:19:21] we, we make money to fuel the kingdom a- uh, the, the [00:19:26] various kingdom callings that- Mm-hmm ... that we a- we have. Nice. And, uh, and so we're constantly asking, [00:19:31] "Lord, bless us, not so that we become rich and, you know, sit on a beach, but so that we can just dedicate [00:19:36] more and more and more of our time to the kingdom."
Speaker 2: And I just feel like that paradigm is getting lost in [00:19:41] some of these, uh, very clergy heavy traditions.
Speaker: Amen. I'm curious what, [00:19:46] like, what shifts in the people that you're coaching, these business owners, people starting [00:19:51] businesses or have businesses that now shift to a more kingdom mind- minded [00:19:56] mentality, what, what are some of the major shifts that you see in them when they start grabbing ahold of [00:20:01] what you're talking about?
Speaker 2: Man, we're constantly having these conversations around, God [00:20:06] has given your family, particular missional callings [00:20:11] and, and, um, you know, we have these like different ways of trying to [00:20:16] figure out what that looks like. Is that, that... Does that have to do with your city, like God has given you a [00:20:21] proximity-based calling?
Speaker 2: Is there some kind of experience you've had like we've been through, we have a special [00:20:26] needs child, or like there, there are so many unique experiences that people have [00:20:31] that unlock their ability to, to engage in the [00:20:36] kingdom in some kind of extraordinarily fruitful way. And so part- Mm-hmm ... of what we try to do is coach through like [00:20:41] what does it look like for you to fully steward that, not just as an individual or a group of individuals, but as a family?
Speaker 2: [00:20:46] Like look at- Mm-hmm ... the way that, you know, you, you and your spouse work together. Look at your house. You know, [00:20:51] one of the things that we're constantly coaching these folks to think about is how do [00:20:56] you think about your house as a forward operating outpost of the Kingdom of God?
Speaker: [00:21:01] Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that me and my son Jackson get to do through 1KH is, you know, we, we go and we, we [00:21:06] travel, uh, usually about once a month.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm h- heading out actually as soon as this podcast is over [00:21:11] to drive to Indianapolis to, to go visit an outpost I haven't seen yet. Um, and it's [00:21:16] unbelievable what some of these families have done. I mean, just like I love, uh, visiting outposts, and [00:21:21] these are... An outpost, the way I'm describing it here, is you have a family and [00:21:26] they've, uh, instead of thinking about their house as this retreat place where they, you know, close the garage and, you [00:21:31] know, they, they kind of hunker down and then they do all their ministry out there, they turn their house into this [00:21:36] hub- Mm
Speaker 2: this, this, uh, for kingdom activity, right? And this doesn't, you know, sometimes they're, they're a part of [00:21:41] churches. Sometimes they have house church. You know, sometimes they're very, very missional. But it's like it's very [00:21:46] unique that what God does in, you know, in our house is we probably host three or four major events [00:21:51] a week at our house.
Speaker 2: Um, you know, we have a, a, a room that fits 50, 60 people. [00:21:56] Um, we have all kinds of outdoor areas, uh, in our house. We've got, you know, four generations living here. [00:22:01] And so, and we're in a very, very central location in the city, and so it's easy for people to come and [00:22:06] park or whatever. Like, um, our neighbors love it, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: But, um, but [00:22:11] we're, we're constantly hosting, constantly utilizing and maximizing [00:22:16] all the resources. But man, like for a lot of these folks who have successful businesses, [00:22:21] they can create, um, one of these, these outpost hub houses [00:22:26] and, uh, man, I love, love, love seeing these houses be transformed into these forward operating [00:22:31] outposts.
Speaker 2: It's, it's just powerful.
Speaker: So if I... If I'm understanding correctly, I mean, based [00:22:36] on all that I know about you and what you're sharing now is- A lot of times in these hubs, [00:22:41] it's a family that says, "We're a team. We have a mission that we're pursuing." A lot of times, and they're inviting [00:22:46] people to join them in that, where their home is the, the hub for that.
Speaker: But [00:22:51] oftentimes, is a business associated with that as well?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the [00:22:56] giant paradigm shift that really is at, at the very core of what we're talking about now is the shift from h- [00:23:01] from family to household, right? So in the New Testament The word oikos or [00:23:06] oikos, however you pronounce it, uh, is a very common word, and I think this is [00:23:11] the missing key for so much, uh, so many people's ecclesiology.
Speaker 2: [00:23:16] So the way that a lot of people think that our models of church developed was that, [00:23:21] you know, somewhere around Acts 1 or Acts 2, Peter and the apostles were having a conversation like, "I don't know, [00:23:26] guys, what kind of, what kind of church model you think we should do? You think we should house church, megachurch, something in the [00:23:31] middle?"
Speaker 2: You know, that... We know that conversation never happened. Um, what happened was when the Holy Spirit came on [00:23:36] Pentecost, there was a preexisting household structure- Mm ... in the Jewish and Roman [00:23:41] world. I've spent my life, you know, my ministry life studying this structure because it, it's [00:23:46] fascinating, and it's, it's...
Speaker 2: And one of the questions, the key questions that I- I've had, [00:23:51] um, you know, as somebody who's tried to understand these different wine skins and different ways of doing church is [00:23:56] can you, uh, restore biblical ecclesiology without first [00:24:01] restoring biblical family theology? And biblical family theology is [00:24:06] the reemergence of the oikos, the first-century household, and these [00:24:11] first-century households were no joke.
Speaker 2: The paterfamilias, they were a part of the government. This [00:24:16] head of the household that you had in the first century, every single family, every [00:24:21] single household had an economic engine at their center. They had a religious life. Both the [00:24:26] Roman and the Jewish religious life was primarily centered in the home, [00:24:31] in the household, right?
Speaker 2: The Shabbat rhythms, Passover, this was happening in the Jewish- the [00:24:36] Jewish home. If you study ancient Roman religions, they had this hearth fire that they had to [00:24:41] keep going. Their primary religious life was not at the temple. Those were always [00:24:46] supplementary. It was in the household. And so when the, the Holy Spirit came down, whether it was in a [00:24:51] Jewish context or in more of a Greek or Roman context, the same thing happened, and that, that is [00:24:56] that the kingdom values first rippled through these, these households, these oikos.[00:25:01]
Speaker 2: And so they became the infrastructure of the early church, and oftentimes when [00:25:06] people begin to imagine a house church, they don't understand the first-century household. And so [00:25:11] what they think is, "Well, let's start to plant churches on the backs of very fragile [00:25:16] Western nuclear families and see how it works."
Speaker 2: And guys, I've tried this for a [00:25:21] long time, and it's, it's really difficult because these guys are not ready. That, that [00:25:26] couple, they don't, they don't function like a team. They don't understand how to [00:25:31] create, um... Th- they're not doing what first-century families did. Most of these households, like [00:25:36] Cornelius's household, we have a great example of that as you're reading through the Book of Acts when Peter went up and talked to [00:25:41] Cornelius.
Speaker 2: Most of these households were 20, 30 people. Mm. Like they, they, they were overseeing. [00:25:46] There were multiple generations. They had their employees or servants or whatever. They had, they had [00:25:51] all these different aspects of the household, the Philippian jailer. And everywhere Paul goes in Acts, he makes [00:25:56] reference to these particular households, Crispus, Gaius, Lydia, [00:26:01] Philippian jailer, Cornelius, Philemon.
Speaker 2: All these guys were, were a really important [00:26:06] part of that infrastructure. Hmm. And that doesn't exist anymore. And so I would say one of the greatest [00:26:11] forks in the road that we've ever had to face in trying to understand how to restore biblical church [00:26:16] is Should we try to find a way to [00:26:21] adapt this sort of house church culture with [00:26:26] modern Western families, or do we not need to take a big step backward and [00:26:31] actually begin to challenge Christians to reestablish the [00:26:36] biblical household?
Speaker 2: And we faced that decision, that fork, about 17 years ago, [00:26:41] and we were like, please, I hope it's the first one because I don't... Like, the second one's really, [00:26:46] really gonna be difficult. And so we tried, and we just saw so many burnouts, [00:26:51] so many families struggling, economically, eh, in every way.
Speaker 2: Their parenting. [00:26:56] And so we finally flipped and said, "Okay, we're gonna... We are gonna take a step back. We're going to start [00:27:01] restoring the biblical household. We're going, we're going to go into churches [00:27:06] and into ch- sort of Christendom as a whole and begin to confront this problem and say, 'Guys, we [00:27:11] need to reestablish the biblical household.'"
Speaker 2: Wow. And if we do that, we think what will [00:27:16] naturally emerge from that is the, the household, or household church [00:27:21] infrastructure that you see in the first century, and we have seen that happen. But it takes 10 or 20 years [00:27:26] to see a family transition from this very broken, very [00:27:31] fragile nuclear family obsession that we have in the West to understanding what it means for us to be a [00:27:36] family team.
Speaker 2: That's why we started this thing called FamilyTeams, and the mission of FamilyTeams [00:27:41] is to restore the biblical blueprint of family as a multi-generational team on mission. But it's important, and a [00:27:46] lot of, you know, a lot of pastors who are constantly inviting us to come and speak about FamilyTeams in their [00:27:51] churches, they're not aware of sort of this sort of secondary desire that we have, and that is that if [00:27:56] this starts to emerge in your church, you will have all of a sudden the [00:28:01] ability to, to see healthy house churches reestablished.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. You don't have to go there. You [00:28:06] can continue to use the wineskin of traditional worship services, but man, i- if you start to see this [00:28:11] happen, we're seeing this in Cincinnati- Mm-hmm ... um, when you start discipling families to become [00:28:16] households, they have the ability... And a lot of times it does start economically.
Speaker 2: Like, they begin to launch businesses. They [00:28:21] begin to learn how to work together. They begin to work with their kids. It's so cool what could begin to happen [00:28:26] generationally. But all of that muscle memory, all that teamwork that o- occurs through doing [00:28:31] education together or through doing business together, that begins to bear [00:28:36] massive dividends when they start to do ministry together.
Speaker: I mean, m- [00:28:41] mind-blowing, Jeremy, mind-blowing because, you know, as you first start talking I, I'd [00:28:46] imagine some people are like, "Well, th- that was the first century. We have a different family model now and a different family [00:28:51] structure, and so we, we need, you know, just adapt to how it is today." But I think you're bringing [00:28:56] up things that are so compelling, and I think the reality is when we recognize it- It's not, [00:29:01] it's not working.
Speaker: And, and I think even if you just move to a house church, how, [00:29:06] how difficult that can be when it's built on the backs of just this small nuclear family. [00:29:11] I mean, dude, you-- Yeah, you've, you've ruined my life in a lot of good ways [00:29:16] because I, I didn't realize how much I just assumed I bought into like, oh, you raise your [00:29:21] kids, you send them off to college, they probably move halfway across the country or world, and hopefully [00:29:26] someday they make their way back.
Speaker: And it's changed my, my narrative of like, well, why, [00:29:31] why do they have to do that? Why can't we create a business that they can stay forever, and then [00:29:36] their kids can join, and we can start other businesses, and they can stay forever, not as an overbearing father, but to [00:29:41] create this, a multi-generational oikos.
Speaker: Yes. And it-- [00:29:46] For me, it was a foreign idea. So when people hear that, though, [00:29:51] that feels overwhelming. Um, it does for me. Yeah. So- Yeah ... if someone's like, "Okay, [00:29:56] g- yeah, great Jeremy, cool. Where do I, where do I start?" Even if you're saying this, this takes [00:30:01] 10 to 20 years, where does someone start- Yeah ... even if they have this longing to step towards more of a [00:30:06] biblical oikos?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so I, I, I know that [00:30:11] for us, it starts with do you believe this is actually God's design for the family? Like, do you think [00:30:16] that God... W- what was in his heart? Like, it wasn't our idea, the family, you know, God's, God's the one who came up [00:30:21] with this idea. And so when you read in Genesis 1 where you begin to [00:30:26] see God creating male and female giving them his image, and then giving them [00:30:31] this, this five-part mission to be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule.
Speaker 2: This five-part mission is [00:30:36] really what captured me. That and studying Abraham, and just understanding how throughout the Bible, both, [00:30:41] both Old and New Testament, you see this, , this multi-generational team idea of family is [00:30:46] exclusively the only way that family was really conceived all the way up till the moment of the [00:30:51] Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 2: And we decided as a culture to change the [00:30:56] kind of family, and, and this is really tough on us because God's the one who designed [00:31:01] this, and, you know, if at the Industrial Revolution when we atomized and said, "Okay, what's really important is [00:31:06] not the household or the multi-generational family, but, you know, the individuals within the family," [00:31:11] and atomizing them and then sending them off to work in different contexts.
Speaker 2: If there was amazing [00:31:16] fruit from that transition, then okay, well maybe we should work with that. But it's been an [00:31:21] absolute disaster.
Speaker 2: America is now the number one country in the world of single-parent homes, [00:31:26] so we are living in ground zero of the destruction of the family, and so our intuitions [00:31:31] cannot be trusted when it comes to this question.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Uh, they're very, very broken. So this is [00:31:36] why, well, as Christians, we have this incredible advantage. We have scripture, and so we can go back to scripture [00:31:41] and ask God, "God, please tell us what was the design of family? Is this what you had in mind, that we [00:31:46] all would just sort of work separately and that we would just raise our kids, you know, as a nest, and it would just [00:31:51] self-destruct every 20 years and start over?
Speaker 2: Was that your idea? Um, or this idea that, that [00:31:56] goes all the way back to, you know, Genesis 1, where we work together to be fruitful, multiply, [00:32:01] fill, subdue, and rule. Um, what, which is it?" And so I, I think we have to start with theology [00:32:06] and really decide what we believe. In the same way that when we're trying to understand the church, we gotta start with [00:32:11] theology.
Speaker 2: You know, you might want to, you know, put on a beautiful show with lots of s- [00:32:16] you know, uh, smoke machines or whatever. That might be your desire, like you've always wanted to be a rock [00:32:21] star. You can't do that to the church. You have to start with what did [00:32:26] Jesus want the church to be? And I think that our Father had a vision for the family.
Speaker 2: So I wanna know [00:32:31] what that is first- Mm-hmm ... um, and just be humble about the fact that what we've, we've sort of, uh, [00:32:36] devolved into is not, is not necessarily been healthy. So we go back to that, and [00:32:41] then it... Once you've had that shift, then you're like, "Okay, well, what did God design?" And these three [00:32:46] words I find so important, um, and, and that is God designed the f- the family to be a [00:32:51] multi-generational team on mission.
Speaker 2: That, that's what you see. Obviously, it's supposed to be multi-generational because [00:32:56] Jesus, or all the way back in Genesis 1- He gives them a mission that c- can [00:33:01] only be accomplished to be, to fill the earth and subdue it. You can't do that in You know, you [00:33:06] can't do that in one generation. So, so this family he created has a [00:33:11] multi-generational mission, and he doesn't give it to just the one person as individuals. He gives it to them. He says, [00:33:16] he blesses them and says to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule." And then you see this, this carried [00:33:21] out throughout the rest of scripture as you see a story of a multi-generational family, you know, [00:33:26] in, in Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, this whole story, or David and Solomon and Rehoboam, this [00:33:31] whole story culminating in the Messiah.
Speaker 2: Like th- th- God cares a lot about genealogies. He cares [00:33:36] a lot about generations and this was all sort of a part of the way that [00:33:41] people thought in the first century when Jesus was speaking. And he did really [00:33:46] challenge the idolatry of family in the first century, because this was such an obsession to them [00:33:51] that they were willing to sacrifice, and there are many Jewish families today who really understand what, everything [00:33:56] I'm saying about family, but they are willing to sacrifice the truth of the gospel for the sake of [00:34:01] peace and continuity with their family.
Speaker 2: Mm. And Jesus is like, "Absolutely not." Like, you [00:34:06] have to decide, is Jesus Lord or not? And so Jesus is first, and he's [00:34:11] more important, and he's above every conception of family. But when it- Mm ... comes to the design of [00:34:16] family, it's really important that we submit ourselves to scripture, and if you're a father or mother leading a family, [00:34:21] then your job isn't to destroy the family.
Speaker 2: Um, Christ wants you to lead your family [00:34:26] well, but we need to get back to an actual workable design. And so the two designs, is the family a [00:34:31] nest or a team, that's the most simple way to think about it. And I think that the idea that [00:34:36] the family is a nest is inherently difficult when we're having these conversations about what is the church.
Speaker 2: [00:34:41] Because the church falling into this nest that self-destructs every 20 years is a very [00:34:46] difficult structure through which to build, uh, the household idea of church. Whereas if [00:34:51] you think about the f- the family as a team with different roles, in the same way that there is a [00:34:56] body and that God designed the church to be a body, God also designed families and put within your [00:35:01] family all the different parts of your team.
Speaker 2: And so it's important to take your team [00:35:06] on mission together, and- Mm ... you want to start to develop the skills of a team, [00:35:11] and that's gonna let you do much more complex things like start businesses or start churches, [00:35:16] like take responsibility. Um, but if you're always doing that as atomized individuals, [00:35:21] man, it, you do have to start to form institutions.
Speaker 2: That's really the only alternative [00:35:26] because- Wow ... institutions essentially create sub-families, like new families, new [00:35:31] teams, and that's the alternative to saying God designed the family to do this [00:35:36] work. If we thought, like if we looked at a mission like in Genesis 1, we would say, "Oh, I wouldn't start a [00:35:41] family to do that job.
Speaker 2: I would start a nonprofit. I would start a church. I would start a government. I would start a [00:35:46] business." But God's like, "Oh, no, I've got a multi-generational, very important project. You know what that needs? [00:35:51] A family." You know? Like, that's a very weird thing for us to hear, but that's what God [00:35:56] did, and I, I'm just like, hey, maybe God had a point, and maybe this is one of the reasons why- You know, [00:36:01] families are, are in so much distress today.
Speaker: Amazing. I mean, just incredible, [00:36:06] Jeremy. I, I'm curious for you and your own story, your own family, how did [00:36:11] this look develop? So you came to this conclusion like, "Okay, God has a view of family. We need to [00:36:16] start living into that." Um, how did you go from there? Like, what did that look like along the [00:36:21] way to what you're doing today?
Speaker: And what... Like, what does it look like, uh, being a multi-generational family [00:36:26] on mission as the, as Team Pryor?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it was a very slow process. [00:36:31] Me and my wife were like everything from, like, how many kids to have. Like, we were very [00:36:36] typical Americans. We were like, "You know, kids are a lot of, lot of work.
Speaker 2: They're a lot of money." [00:36:41] Um, and so we really submitted that to the Lord and ended up with a much larger family than, than [00:36:46] I, either of us, you know, certainly I would've, I, I would've, like, designed. So we have five kids, [00:36:51] um, and that's been amazing. And then we started, when I left ministry and started these [00:36:56] businesses and began to work on those things, my wife and I would work together.
Speaker 2: I would take, you know, we, uh, [00:37:01] of our five kids, I would take one of my kids to work with me every day. So there was a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday , [00:37:06] like all the way while they were- Wow ... you know, growing up. So I was constantly working with my wife, [00:37:11] working with my kids. They were in board meetings with me.
Speaker 2: I would take them on every trip I would go on. [00:37:16] Um, as we started different businesses, I would, we would talk together about this. We had family meetings every [00:37:21] week as our kids were getting, you know, a little bit older and able to handle that. Um, and then we would do, [00:37:26] we would take whole seasons of our lives and go to Jerusalem.
Speaker 2: Uh, we had apartments in [00:37:31] Jerusalem for three years. My wife and I actually met in Jerusalem when I was- Hmm ... studying Hebrew over there. [00:37:36] And so we would go there to do family i- archeology, basically. Like, we were there [00:37:41] to try to figure this out. We were like, "I don't know how to do this." And we discovered all kinds of crazy tools.
Speaker 2: Um, the [00:37:46] Shabbat dinner was the one that just blew our minds. So we began to implement this. I'm like, "I'm a Gentile. Am I [00:37:51] allowed to do something like this, you know, as a Gentile? Or do I have to, you know, does it have to be [00:37:56] like the..." The typical family eats their dinners, when they eat them together, it's about a [00:38:01] 12-minute experience today.
Speaker 2: Um, so, uh, that's not gonna work if you're gonna [00:38:06] build- Wow ... a multi-generational family. So we started this, you know, really epic family meal. [00:38:11] Um, it just was with us and our kids, but then eventually it involved my wife's parents, and my parents moved from Seattle [00:38:16] out here, and then they started coming every week.
Speaker 2: And then it started, it, so it went to three [00:38:21] generations, and then, you know, my grandmother was a part of it, so it went to four generations. She passed, and my kids started [00:38:26] having kids. I've got, you know, four grandkids now. And so, you know, so that, so we started to, to [00:38:31] develop all these tools that turned our family multi-generational.
Speaker 2: And then as, uh, of course as our kids got [00:38:36] older, you know, we started, we started doing more and more ministry with them, business with them. So we started, you know, writing books [00:38:41] together, um, you know, launching businesses together. We now live in a four-generation house. All my kids [00:38:46] live, you know, um, you know, either in, in our house.
Speaker 2: We have four different, like, apartments [00:38:51] in this house, plus my oldest daughter lives across the street. You know, with her two kids, her husband. [00:38:56] So yeah, I mean, we're... This is just like now typical life. We're just, we live [00:39:01] life together. Um, we build ministries and business, you know, things, and it's just constant.
Speaker 2: So [00:39:06] my two son-in-laws, you know, start a construction company. Um, my son Jackson and I work [00:39:11] together in everything I do, uh, the two of us to-to, uh, work together. My wife is a [00:39:16] part of, you know, everything we do. Um, we're all, uh, we have a house church. Uh, my [00:39:21] parents are, are a very dynamic part of that as well.
Speaker 2: We constantly are working on starting [00:39:26] disciple-making movements. That's a, a big part of our family's mission. We have our own outreach that we do, [00:39:31] uh, downtown every, every week. So anyway, there, there's a lot, um, that our family tries to [00:39:36] steward and it... But it was always like one step at a time. I would say every, every like, every, uh, you know, [00:39:41] six to 12 months, we would like discover a new tool and just slowly adopt it into the [00:39:46] family.
Speaker 2: Mm. So like- Mm ... let's try this. Like the idea of a family meeting. Okay, what's this? Okay, we'd screw up and we'd [00:39:51] try to find a little thing. We'd, we'd, we'd eventually get, get to a place, stumble, and then start to, you know, crawl and [00:39:56] then walk and, and then run. And then we would do the same thing with like the family meal.
Speaker 2: And then like, and we have [00:40:01] a, you know, very full festival schedule we host as well. That started with one festival, and after two [00:40:06] or three years, we figured out how to do that. Then we would, you know, try a second festival, a third festival. [00:40:11] You know, we're about 25 years into that, you know, that process. You know.
Speaker 2: Amazing. So anyway, [00:40:16] that's, that's our family's life is very full, but it was very [00:40:21] incremental, you know? And at any point it was like we did start to feel overwhelmed or burnt out, we'd just slow down. Like, I [00:40:26] don't think God wants us to be overwhelmed or burned out, burnt out. Um, God's got all the time in the world, [00:40:31] but it is important we, we become intentional and strategic.
Speaker 2: Those are the like the two words that we just constantly [00:40:36] we're aiming at. Like let's, let's not let the culture happen to us. Let's happen to the [00:40:41] culture. Like let's, let's proactively make decisions about the kind of family culture we wanna have, the [00:40:46] kind of kingdom culture we believe that Jesus wants us to pursue, and so let's be intentional [00:40:51] and strategic.
Speaker 2: Okay, what actually will work? Like I, I'm not, I'm not like a, a [00:40:56] wide-eyed idealist, you know. I care a lot about things working. Wow. I care a lot [00:41:01] about the fruit. The fruit's gotta be good. Um, and so there are things sometimes we're like, "Oh, the fruit's bad." Like we [00:41:06] are burning out. Like that's, that's not great.
Speaker 2: That's not great for my marriage, not great for my kids. Like, like we gotta be [00:41:11] willing to like call it, you know? And we've, we've, we've had multiple house churches that we've had to shut [00:41:16] down because our family just was burning out and we could not- Yeah ... figure out how to sustain it during those seasons.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So [00:41:21] it's been, it's been a journey for sure.
Speaker: What, what's the ask [00:41:26] of, like, asking parents or grandparents or even your kids to buy [00:41:31] into this idea in really practical ways? I mean, that's, like, life-altering. "Come [00:41:36] live with us, and let's do some businesses together." And, like, when I say life together, I [00:41:41] mean, like, life together.
Speaker: H- how do you... What does that ask look like?
Speaker 2: [00:41:46] Yeah. It's very incremental. And it's very invitational I'm not big [00:41:51] into manipulation. Um, there's a wide open door to come in. There's a wide open door [00:41:56] to, to go out. Our kids have come and gone We don't expect our kids to all live here [00:42:01] for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2: Um, it's, it's simply like April and I, as [00:42:06] we see our role, we're kind of the bridge generation, right? 'Cause we got... My parents are [00:42:11] still alive. Her mom is still alive. Um, we do a lot of work with them. My [00:42:16] mother-in-law is going through a lot of health issues. My, my, my wife's over there every day.
Speaker 2: Um, and so [00:42:21] we wanna do a really good job of honoring our upstream generation [00:42:26] and, um, and then with our two downstream generations, our kids and our [00:42:31] grandkids, so much of it is, "Guys..." And, and m- my kids knew this as they were growing [00:42:36] up. I'm like, "We're building this to help you, um, and we don't wanna ever control [00:42:41] you.
Speaker 2: It's just very invitational, but i- if there's anything we need," like we created a family bank, and it's just like, [00:42:46] "Guys, if you need like a loan, if you need help, if you need a grant, if you n- whatever, [00:42:51] like we wanna help you guys launch businesses. Uh, we wanna help you guys get [00:42:56] established in, in housing, and we wanna help you guys have kids early and often."
Speaker 2: They know that those are values for [00:43:01] our, our family. We care a lot about... We love multiplication, you know, whether it's [00:43:06] discipleship, uh, or bi- bio kids. Like we're very into like life [00:43:11] and the multiplication of life as God created it in Genesis 1, and so we wanna be [00:43:16] constantly assisting our kids in every way.
Speaker 2: So we set up our family to do that really well. [00:43:21] Um, we have very frank meetings with our kids, like, "What, what's helping you? Is there things [00:43:26] that, that, you know... Are we crossing any, any boundaries or any lines that, that feels unhealthy for you guys?" [00:43:31] Our in-law kids, this is very shocking to them. They're like, "Oh my gosh, like this crazy big [00:43:36] family that does all this stuff together, like what does it mean to be a part of this?"
Speaker 2: And so for us, [00:43:41] we have a lot of respect for each branch of the family, their autonomy. Mm-hmm. They're being led [00:43:46] by that father. Like my two son-in-laws, like I want them to be the [00:43:51] primary leaders of their households, of their families. Um, and we do believe in [00:43:56] traditional, uh, like order in the home.
Speaker 2: We believe that that kind of [00:44:01] a father-led household exists because we're supposed to be a team. Mm-hmm. Nobody [00:44:06] has a problem with hierarchy when it's an actual team. Mm-hmm. Like nobody's like, "How dare you have a [00:44:11] coach for your team?"
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Like, you know, if it's a team, it needs a structure, and that [00:44:16] structure...
Speaker 2: Because you're going to go to battle, and you need to win, and you, and people need to bear clear [00:44:21] responsibilities, and those roles are a beautiful thing. There's a lot of things that you don't wanna have roles for, and [00:44:26] then modern Western nuclear family, where you basically are a recreation center, [00:44:31] um, that kind of comes back together, you know, on evenings and weekends, yeah, that doesn't really need a [00:44:36] structure.
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't do anything together. It's not actually taking ground. It's not going to war. Like I get it. I [00:44:41] get why in the church and in the culture they hate hierarchy in the home. We are [00:44:46] 100% in to that because we believe that those verses exist because God actually [00:44:51] cared a lot about the family functioning the way a team [00:44:56] would function.
Speaker 2: And this is why you see that hierarchy and that structure in businesses and in, [00:45:01] in militaries and on teams, sports teams. Um, so [00:45:06] a lot of that is really important to us. We really wanna honor our kids [00:45:11] and what, and these, uh, structures that they're creating. And each of their, each of these branches have, [00:45:16] you know, very much a unique calling on their, on their life, but there's a lot of [00:45:21] overlap, and we love that.
Speaker 2: We love getting to see places. So, like, in our house church right now, [00:45:26] you know, all of our kids have spent lots of time in the mission field as singles. [00:45:31] Um, and when they got married, like my, you know, my, my oldest daughter, they were part of a different house church. [00:45:36] But over time, they've all kind of decided to join our particular house church for [00:45:41] this season.
Speaker 2: Again, I know this is a season. It's a really crazy, beautiful season. My dad and I were just, [00:45:46] um, riding in the car yesterday, and he, like, looked at me and said, "Jeremy, um, man, [00:45:51] how long do you think this season's gonna last with all your kids living on the same [00:45:56] street, going to the same house church?" Like, I'm like, "I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's super sweet. It's [00:46:01] certainly not gonna last forever, and we want whatever God wants, and we know God's gonna send our kids- Is [00:46:06] it- ... in different ways. But anyway, that's where we're at today.
Speaker: Amazing. You briefly mentioned [00:46:11] the disciple-making movement part of that. How does, how does the disciple-making movement fit into what you're [00:46:16] doing?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm a... So we've really tried to [00:46:21] understand how do you make disciples who make disciples? Um, I would say the, the most important [00:46:26] metric for every discipleship, um, effort is, is it reaching the fourth [00:46:31] generation or not? So we're very hard on this question, and there doesn't exist right now, [00:46:36] um, hardly any movements in the West that are reaching the fourth generation.
Speaker 2: [00:46:41] There's a incredibly, uh, difficult systemic problem with the [00:46:46] multiplication of disciple-making movements. There's lots of them overseas. There's lots of them in Africa, South, South [00:46:51] America, and Asia. There's very, very few in Europe and North America. And so we've [00:46:56] been studying this problem for years, uh, and uh, and trying to figure out how to do this.
Speaker 2: So we [00:47:01] launched disciple-making effort about four years ago that has reached the fifth [00:47:06] generation in multiple lines, and we just were really hard on the blueprint. And so what we do [00:47:11] in our house church and as a family is we ask everyone every year to make [00:47:16] disciples or be discipled. We talk a lot about this.
Speaker 2: Um, we, we really, [00:47:21] um, we help equip everyone to, to go through a disciple-making process, and we have a [00:47:26] very specific blueprint that we've been, you know, hammering and iterating on for years, um, [00:47:31] and, and trying to see if it can get to the fourth generation. And so the fact that it's [00:47:36] just now beginning to get into that, into that space has been super encouraging to us.
Speaker 2: So we [00:47:41] would, you know, your listeners, anybody, anybody listening to this, if you guys wanna be trained in it, you know, uh, we, [00:47:46] we will be happy to train you. We, we take people through about three-month, uh, intensives online. We've got, [00:47:51] you know, the videos and everything to help really understand and study the nature [00:47:56] of the problem of multiplication and discipleship, particularly in a Western context.
Speaker 2: Like, that's, that's been the [00:48:01] obsession 'cause this is already working really well in non-Western contexts, but man, this is tough. [00:48:06] Um- Is- ... and so that's, that's what we're doing.
Speaker: Is that under the 1KH umbrella or what umbrella?
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you go to [00:48:11] 1KH dot... Yeah. If you go to 1KH.org, every three to four months we'll launch a new cohort.[00:48:16]
Speaker 2: Um, um, and right now the, the... It's called Life on Life Discipleship. You can [00:48:21] join, um, a cohort, and we will train you over the course of about three or four months, [00:48:26] uh, in the blueprint that we use for disciple making. Um, and, um, and you [00:48:31] know, we're not saying we've solved everything or it's the only way to do it.
Speaker 2: We just, we just took this problem [00:48:36] extraordinarily seriously. Like, the multiplication problems are really tough. And so we've, [00:48:41] we've really addressed it in many, many different iterations of this, of this blueprint. [00:48:46] So yeah, I'd be happy to give that away, uh- Awesome ... to anybody who's interested.
Speaker: When... Why, [00:48:51] why do you think in, in the West here, the fourth generation is so [00:48:56] difficult?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's really unfortunate. I mean, I, I think that there's lots and [00:49:01] lots of, of, uh, it's a multivariate variant problem. You know, consumerism's a [00:49:06] big part of it. Um, obsession with, like, professionalism is another one. Like, who am I? [00:49:11] Like, people are always asking us, like, "Oh, I can be discipled, but, but who am I to, to make disciples?"
Speaker 2: Like, [00:49:16] we are so wealthy, which is another big part of it, that we just buy whatever we need at a really high level, and so [00:49:21] it's very difficult for us to, to go through a program or to launch a program or a process [00:49:26] that is, that is being done by a non-professional. Uh, we're just not used to that. We, we're used to [00:49:31] having the absolute best of the best and being catered to in every, every dimension because of our [00:49:36] wealth.
Speaker 2: Um, and so those are all really big issues, but I'd say the consumerism's probably the most difficult [00:49:41] one for us to overcome in that, like, people are willing to be discipled, but as soon as you try to help [00:49:46] them make... like, encourage them to make disciples, um, they are, they immediately lock [00:49:51] up. Like, "Oh, man, I, you know, I'm too busy."
Speaker 2: And so it's just there's a, [00:49:56] a r- there's a lot of problems with just the way that we think about what is our obligation as [00:50:01] Christians. Like, what's a normal week in the life of a Christian? Discipleship just doesn't fit [00:50:06] in there for most Christians. They go to worship service, you know, they might serve in a ministry, they might attend a [00:50:11] small group.
Speaker 2: Um, and so you have those things, but, but making disciples and actually making [00:50:16] that a normal part of the week of a typical Christian, you have to... It takes an enormous amount of [00:50:21] effort to shift the culture To begin to think about in that way. And one of the reasons why I love house churches [00:50:26] is because oftentimes within the house church context, you can really elevate the [00:50:31] desire and the value of discipleship.
Speaker 2: But in the traditional church, [00:50:36] oftentimes for them it's more threatening because, uh, they need people to [00:50:41] prioritize worship service attendance, small group, otherwise people will leave their worship [00:50:46] service. And then of course, if they're doing those two things, they need people to serve in a ministry to keep- Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: those other two things [00:50:51] going. And by that time they're doing three things a week and, and, and they're like, "Who's got time for a fourth thing a week?" [00:50:56] Maybe 5, 10% of your congregants could do something like that. That's right. You can't build a movement [00:51:01] off of 5 or 10% of the congregants. No. Like, that's not gonna work.
Speaker: No. No.
Speaker 2: Um, and so you need everybody to, [00:51:06] to engage in this as if this is the main mission, and that's really hard for [00:51:11] traditional worship service ministries to, to fully get behind because they see it as a threat. Um, but I've met a [00:51:16] lot of pastors now that are beginning to, you know, um, wake up to this and say, [00:51:21] "Well, like even if it costs us a lot, even if it means our worship service might really take a hit, [00:51:26] um, we're going to go make disciples."
Speaker 2: Um, they're certainly in the minority, and this is why I, I really [00:51:31] wanna, I really wanna encourage pastors or house church leaders, like we really need to [00:51:36] take this commission seriously. Um, and it, it's like asking [00:51:41] people the very basic questions like, you know, who discipled you? And, [00:51:46] and how many disciples have you made?
Speaker 2: Like, most people, they just don't... Like even this year, have you made any [00:51:51] disciples this year? How about last year? How... I mean, we could be asking these questions the same way we ask about, [00:51:56] you know, giving or, or attendance or small group, but we're not counting. And this [00:52:01] really, to me, betrays the fact that we don't think this is the mission.
Speaker 2: And, and so it's [00:52:06] important to be aware of what the real mission is, and that is what we're actually [00:52:11] emphasizing, casting a vision around, counting. And so I, I think we need to get a lot [00:52:16] more aggressive with, guys, the mission is to make disciples who make disciples. Like, we need to get [00:52:21] really good at this.
Speaker 2: We need to become very committed to this mission.
Speaker: How much in [00:52:26] the disciple-making process are you incorporating the, a lot of [00:52:31] the broader kingdom vision of the oikos?
Speaker 2: Yeah. In our [00:52:36] process, it's, it's a very big part of it. And my wife- It makes sense ... when she makes disciples... Yeah, it's a, it's [00:52:41] something that we do.
Speaker 2: Now, part of what we believe about discipleship is discipleship [00:52:46] is not giving people what we, what you don't have, but giving people what you have, right? Amen. [00:52:51] Like, you can only give people what you have. I don't like developing curriculums that are [00:52:56] kind of off the shelf. I prefer to ask, and we, what we do when we're discipling people is we actually pe- [00:53:01] everybody that, at the very end of our discipleship process, we take people away, we have them develop an entire [00:53:06] catalog of trainings that are specific passages, specific [00:53:11] themes, specific habits that, that the Holy Spirit has given them over the course of their [00:53:16] time of following Jesus.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. And saying, "Okay, let's catalog those things," and that is your [00:53:21] discipleship curriculum. Those are the things you can, you, you can now train others in. Wow. And so we develop, we're like, "Okay, [00:53:26] here are 15, 20 things." Now, for us- Wow ... yeah, there's a lot of household-based habits, [00:53:31] rhythms, traditions that we really wanna train people in, because these are things that have been very [00:53:36] life-giving for our family, and we wanna give those away.
Speaker 2: But if I'm training somebody who's like, "Ah, I haven't really experienced [00:53:41] that yet, but man do I understand prayer," Great. Like, that's gonna be core to-
Speaker: Amazing ...
Speaker 2: [00:53:46] the people you disciple. Don't give people what you don't have. And our sort of basic idea here is we dis- [00:53:51] disciple people in four to six-month intensives.
Speaker 2: We take them away for two overnights and then do a [00:53:56] series of trainings, one-on-ones and coachings over the course of a four to six-month intensive. And [00:54:01] the idea is most people should go through a discipleship rhythm like this, you know, six to eight times in [00:54:06] their lifetime, not just once. Like, none- Wow
Speaker 2: of us are Jesus. Jesus had three years. He [00:54:11] imparted everything to these guys. I'm not Jesus. I don't have everything. There's certain things I have. [00:54:16] I'll give you what I've got, and then I need to activate all the other members of the body, because there's so many [00:54:21] other things. Y- if you really want that theme, you need to go be discipled by this guy.
Speaker 2: Um, [00:54:26] and that's great. Beautiful. Like, that's part of the body building itself up. But I can't, I can't do it all.
Speaker: [00:54:31] Beautiful. Man, Jeremy, incredible. Well, I know we gotta, we gotta [00:54:36] land the plane. That just means I need to have you on again, uh, 'cause there, you have so much in your, not just your head, but in [00:54:41] your heart, and I just really appreciate the way that you, you share from what you [00:54:46] have and what you've experienced and lived out so generously.
Speaker: I am confident the [00:54:51] people that are, our, our listeners will be blessed and encouraged by this. Just a few [00:54:56] follow-up things here. You, you've mentioned a few things. This is a thing I know about Jeremy, and others have told me this [00:55:01] about Jeremy. Jeremy's got about 47 irons in the fire, and, um, they're always [00:55:06] changing in and out.
Speaker: So you have, if I'm remembering correctly here, you have Family [00:55:11] Teams, Family Inc., 1KH. [00:55:16] Um, am I missing anything else? And could you just give me a, just our listeners, a brief synopsis of what each of those are? [00:55:21] So if that, they're like, ding, ding, ding, that, that resonates with me, where do they go to get more info on that [00:55:26] stuff?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's really, like, two big buckets. You know, there's Family Teams, which [00:55:31] is, this is where we really work to restore the biblical blueprint of family as a household. [00:55:36] There's a multi-generational team on a mission. Under that umbrella is things like Family Inc., where we coach [00:55:41] folks in kind of this economic transition to- towards household.
Speaker 2: Um, [00:55:46] and we have a lot of other things, like we have an accelerator there where we, you know, give workshops every month on how to [00:55:51] do different elements of the f- of the family's life. So you guys can join that. [00:55:56] Um, One KH is really where we work to [00:56:01] activate households to disciple the city. Like, that's really the mission of that organization.
Speaker 2: [00:56:06] So that's a nonprofit, um, that we do, and there's three different trainings under there. [00:56:11] Uh, one is about discipleship, which we've talked a lot about. I always like people to start there. If you, if you don't have [00:56:16] Discipleship Blueprint, please go to onekh.org and join our disciple making. It's free. I'll get [00:56:21] to spend three or four months with you.
Speaker 2: I would love this. My wife and I do this together. Uh, we love training [00:56:26] people on how to make disciples. Um, we feel very called to it. Um, we also have House for [00:56:31] Community, which is about a... It's a more, you know, more like a six-month intensive about how to do house church. My son and I [00:56:36] lead that. Um, and then we've got another one called Made for Mission, which is, you know, how to, how to, how to do [00:56:41] outreach through, through your household.
Speaker 2: So if you're looking to do evangelism, um, we really [00:56:46] wanna do that. But usually the order that people, people take this in is, is discipleship, [00:56:51] if they're really interested in that, and then we can look at, you know, which one of these, these other [00:56:56] trainings might be useful. And we try to break it down to those three because I think there's some amazing places, [00:57:01] places you can get, you know, a house church training, and I, I love what, you know, Francis Chan's [00:57:06] doing.
Speaker 2: I love what the Dwellings guys are do- You know, like, there's so many cool places. Um, but, but I was [00:57:11] like, sometimes I just like, "I need this one thing. Like, please help me with discipleship." All right, great. You can just [00:57:16] take that and run with it. We'll be happy to do that. Um, but yeah, these are the two, kinda the two worlds we live in, Family Teams [00:57:21] and, and 1,000 Houses.
Speaker: So onekh.org, and f- is it just [00:57:26] familyteams.com?
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker: Perfect. Yeah, both are very [00:57:31] worthwhile, uh, resources for those of you that are listening and wanna check it out, but, uh, Jeremy, as we're wrapping up, [00:57:36] anything that's o- on your heart that you feel like you wanna share with our listeners before we, uh, close it out [00:57:41] today?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so, uh, encouraged by anybody who, going all the way back to [00:57:46] what we first started talking about, anybody who's asking those first principle questions, where you're just [00:57:51] like... If you, you're just like, "Why are we doing this? Why?" Like, thank you. [00:57:56] And you might have that little A apostolic gift, and if that's you, um, I'm sorry for how [00:58:01] much we disrespect you, uh, in the church in so many contexts.
Speaker 2: We need you to ask [00:58:06] those questions. Um, and so please be patient with, with, uh, with [00:58:11] the, the, the body of Christ as we try to understand how best to answer [00:58:16] those questions. But keep asking. Let's keep working together. Um, you know, but you, you're a very [00:58:21] important part of the larger body of Christ, and so thank you for, for being pioneers.[00:58:26]
Speaker 2: We desperately need that now more than ever. Um, what worked in the past is not what's gonna work in the [00:58:31] future. Uh, we're, we're really coming into a very new era of, of history with AI and a lot of [00:58:36] the things that are happening. And if we don't start respecting the, the more apostolic [00:58:41] architecture-minded people, then I think the church is gonna be in big trouble.
Speaker 2: We need to be able to make some really [00:58:46] difficult transitions in the years to come. So yeah, I, I'm right there with you. Uh, [00:58:51] keep up the good work.
Speaker: Amen. Jeremy, thanks for being on, man. I really [00:58:56] appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks, Brenton.
